# Pittsburgh Left **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [July 13, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pittsburgh-left/588816 "2011-07-13T01:30:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![What\_the](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f4b2a3/32.png) [@What\_the](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_the)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pittsburgh-left/588816/1 "2011-07-13T01:30:22Z")
The traffice maneuver whereby the first car in the left turn lane makes his turn as soon as the light turns green rather than wait for the oncoming traffic to start up and clear. I had seen it practised in Pitsburgh and only Pittsburgh until just last week while visiting Kailua, Hawaii. Is it common in other parts of the country? ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pittsburgh-left/588816/2 "2011-07-13T01:36:39Z")
It happens all the time in the Washington, D.C., area. It’s crazy and dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Know\_Nothing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f04885/32.png) [@I\_Know\_Nothing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Know_Nothing)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pittsburgh-left/588816/3 "2011-07-13T01:38:13Z")
I may have seen it once or twice in Dallas in around 30 years. I’ve lived in Chicagoland(Bloomingdale) for almost a year and see it more often, mostly in the city. ---
**Author:** ![Bag\_of\_Mostly\_Water](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bag_of_mostly_water/32/1029_2.png) [@Bag\_of\_Mostly\_Water](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bag_of_Mostly_Water)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 1:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pittsburgh-left/588816/4 "2011-07-13T01:47:24Z")
I see this all the time in Philadelphia. And, yes, it’s stupid and dangerous. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Know\_Nothing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f04885/32.png) [@I\_Know\_Nothing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Know_Nothing)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pittsburgh-left/588816/5 "2011-07-13T01:51:47Z")
> [@Ex\_Chemist](#): > > I see this all the time in Philadelphia. And, yes, it’s stupid and dangerous. The first time I heard it, I seem to remember it being called a Phillie left. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pittsburgh-left/588816/6 "2011-07-13T02:00:47Z")
That’s how it’s done where it isn’t prohibited by law (where it’s still done illegally). Otherwise you end up with left turns on red when there’s a long line of cars coming the other way. It’s not dangerous, the cars coming the other way expect that to happen. And it’s called a ‘left turn’. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pittsburgh-left/588816/7 "2011-07-13T02:04:44Z")
Got a cite for that? Because I can’t recall ever hearing any rule other than cars going straight or right – that is, cars that don’t have to cross in front of oncoming traffic – have right of way when the light turns green. The ones turning left are supposed to yield. The ones turning left are supposed to wait, even if one has to wait until the light is yellow or red. ---
**Author:** ![thelabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pittsburgh-left/588816/8 "2011-07-13T02:51:39Z")
I see it now and then. The alert, aggressive drivers can often do so while the oncoming drivers sit there like toads after the light turns green. It seems to me that people are getting slower and slower about getting under way on green. If I see a light turn green a block away and there are 3-4 cars waiting, I usually expect to have to stop because somebody can’t get their foot off the brake and on the gas. Well yes, you do need to make sure cross traffic has stopped. but you can check that before your green. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Know\_Nothing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f04885/32.png) [@I\_Know\_Nothing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Know_Nothing)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pittsburgh-left/588816/9 "2011-07-13T02:56:38Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > That’s how it’s done where it isn’t prohibited by law (where it’s still done illegally). Otherwise you end up with left turns on red when there’s a long line of cars coming the other way. It’s not dangerous, the cars coming the other way expect that to happen. And it’s called a ‘left turn’. You may have misunderstood the OP. Are you talking about an unprotected left turn(where you yield to oncoming traffic while making a left turn at an intersection? OP is referring to when two cars, going opposite directions(say N and S), are stopped at a light. N needs to take a left turn. Light turns green(for both N and S). N guns it and takes a left infront of S, who’s going straight. I can’t imagine how anyone could think this is safe. What if S going straight accelerates just as fast as N. Then there is a wreck. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Know\_Nothing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f04885/32.png) [@I\_Know\_Nothing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Know_Nothing)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pittsburgh-left/588816/10 "2011-07-13T03:02:08Z")
I can maybe see it if there are just 2 cars at the intersection and the one going straight just isn’t paying attention. Still seems dangerous though. You never know when he’s going to wake up and gun it. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 3:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pittsburgh-left/588816/11 "2011-07-13T03:03:10Z")
> [@](#): > > I see it now and then. The alert, aggressive drivers can often do so while the oncoming drivers sit there like toads after the light turns green. It seems to me that people are getting slower and slower about getting under way on green. If I see a light turn green a block away and there are 3-4 cars waiting, I usually expect to have to stop because somebody can’t get their foot off the brake and on the gas. If I lived in a place where aggressive drivers turned as soon as the light changed, I’d wait a few moments before going through a green light, too. The cautious toads are the ones that aren’t roadkill. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pittsburgh-left/588816/12 "2011-07-13T03:04:32Z")
This is almost universal in Boston (or was back in the 70s). In fact it was common that two or even three left turns would be made with the second (and third) car making tighter turns than the first and being somewhat shielded. What are you doing to do ram them? It is fairly common now in CT. I really doubt Philly has it over Boston drivers for aggressiveness. ---
**Author:** ![IvoryTowerDenizen](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ivorytowerdenizen/32/17937_2.png) [@IvoryTowerDenizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/IvoryTowerDenizen)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pittsburgh-left/588816/13 "2011-07-13T03:41:25Z")
I remember hearing and seeing it in practice about this when I lived in Pittsburgh. Everyone (who knew!) expected it and most of the time it was fine. It created havoc for the uninitiated though. those were dangerous situations, indeed. ---
**Author:** ![D18](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@D18](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/D18)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pittsburgh-left/588816/14 "2011-07-13T03:44:00Z")
Was SOP on Long Island when I lived there in the late 80s. I never thought it was dangerous, because everyone knew that it was what was “done”. In fact, I learned to go with it because if I was doing the left turn and hesitated, the oncoming driver would wave me left. It actually seemed to work well and was quite a nice feature of traffic flow. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pittsburgh-left/588816/15 "2011-07-13T12:24:38Z")
> [@What\_the](#): > > The traffice maneuver whereby the first car in the left turn lane makes his turn as soon as the light turns green rather than wait for the oncoming traffic to start up and clear. > > I had seen it practised in Pitsburgh and only Pittsburgh until just last week while visiting Kailua, Hawaii. > > Is it common in other parts of the country? You’ve never been to Boston, have you? ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pittsburgh-left/588816/16 "2011-07-13T12:46:56Z")
I’ve certainly seen it in a number of places. I find this maneuver particularly troubling because of the very high risk of pedestrian and bicyclist collisions. The left-turner in this scenario has to be thinking about the opposing car–intent on gunning it across that guy’s lane before that guy gets going. He’s not watching for the smaller, softer traffic which _also_ gets the right-of-way when the opposing car gets the green. ---
**Author:** ![thelabdude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dc4da7/32.png) [@thelabdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelabdude)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 1:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pittsburgh-left/588816/17 "2011-07-13T13:04:04Z")
Good point. As one that is concerned with the visually impaired, it makes it more difficult for them. As mentioned in another thread, ‘‘Don’t be courteous, be predictable.’’ Of course being courteous also involves courtesy to those behind you. Going when you have the green lessens the chances of being rear ended. When you are the second or third car back, usually it is safer to proceed than dawdle. ---
**Author:** ![Chessic\_Sense](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/7c8e57/32.png) [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pittsburgh-left/588816/18 "2011-07-13T14:15:16Z")
> [@spark240](#): > > I find this maneuver particularly troubling because of the very high risk of pedestrian and bicyclist collisions. The left-turner in this scenario has to be thinking about the opposing car–intent on gunning it across that guy’s lane before that guy gets going. He’s not watching for the smaller, softer traffic which _also_ gets the right-of-way when the opposing car gets the green. Pedestrians? _Bicycles_?! You must never have been to Pittsburgh. We don’t do “that” here. 😛 Seriously, though, there are too many hills to walk anywhere significantly far. There aren’t many places where you’ll see pedestrians lined up on the sidewalk, waiting to cross. And on those intersections, the left-yield thing isn’t done. This is the first time I’m hearing that this is considered weird behavior elsewhere. There’s plenty of time to complete the left turn before the other car (and thus the follow-on traffic) truly blocks you out. This is only done in intersections that are wide enough to perform such a tactic, and all it requires is a _tiiiiny_ hesitation on the part of the straight-car. It’s a voluntary courtesy so that the turner doesn’t have to sit there for three minutes waiting for the cars to clear. Everyone in the straight lane gives up half a second to save that guy three minutes. It’s ultimately up the lead straight-driver and if he doesn’t want to yield, he won’t. I don’t see the problem here. ---
**Author:** ![cjepson](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a9adbd/32.png) [@cjepson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cjepson)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pittsburgh-left/588816/19 "2011-07-13T15:44:08Z")
> [@Ex\_Chemist](#): > > I see this all the time in Philadelphia. And, yes, it’s stupid and dangerous. One thing I’ve noticed recently is, if a person is at a red light with the left turn signal on, the person opposite sometimes flashes his headlights, basically saying “you go first”. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [July 13, 2011, 3:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pittsburgh-left/588816/20 "2011-07-13T15:57:07Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#): > > This is the first time I’m hearing that this is considered weird behavior elsewhere. have you ever ventured outside of Pittsburgh? > [@](#): > > There’s plenty of time to complete the left turn before the other car (and thus the follow-on traffic) truly blocks you out. This is only done in intersections that are wide enough to perform such a tactic, and all it requires is a _tiiiiny_ hesitation on the part of the straight-car. unless someone on the cross street runs a red light. Then you’re toast. It’s a total dick move. It’s especially bad at intersections which have a protected left turn in the signal cycle. > [@thelabdude](#): > > I see it now and then. The alert, aggressive drivers can often do so while the oncoming drivers sit there like toads after the light turns green. It seems to me that people are getting slower and slower about getting under way on green. We’re not “sitting there like toads.” We’re making sure some jackwagon isn’t running the red on the cross street. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pittsburgh-left/588816.md?page=2)