# 'Pizza Pie' Is NOT Redundant! **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 6, 2016, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pizza-pie-is-not-redundant/765177 "2016-09-06T10:07:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jim\_B](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jim_b/32/4338_2.png) [@Jim\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_B)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 10:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pizza-pie-is-not-redundant/765177/1 "2016-09-06T10:07:15Z")
When I was a child, there were those academic purists. And much as they do today, they were quick to correct people, if they made (in their opinion) a mistake. In grammar, in word usage, and so forth. Anyways, one thing that they used to say, was that the phrase “pizza pie” is redundant. “Pizza” already means “pie” in Italian, they would say. Use the word the right way! Anyways, almost immediately, I would disagree. You see, “pizza” is NOT necessarily an Italian word anymore. Oh, sure, it is **derived** from Italian. But it now a naturalized English word. And it definitely does NOT mean “pie”. It means “pizza”. Get it? Also, people sometimes say the letter “J” is the most recent addition to the English alphabet. Prior to the 17th century, it was used rather indiscriminately with “I”. In fact, at one time, they were just considered the same letter. Anyways, I don’t know about that one. I mean, the same letter? Then it really wasn’t a bona fide new letter, when it was made a consonant alone. Actually, I tend to think, “W” is the most recent letter. It was introduced in the 11th century, for a sound the Latin alphabet had no letter for. So I would tend to think it was the most recent letter, since it has no substitute. As I said, though, I still have to think about that one. And when I took a college class a couple of decades ago, my English composition teacher said “more perfect” is redundant, and inaccurate. The authors of the US constitution, say in the preamble, they wanted to form a “more perfect union”. Again, I am conflicted. I mean, “more perfect”? That could actually mean more _approaching_ perfection, couldn’t it? Language is very complex. And it is sometimes irrational too. It is after all, used by the very irrational human animal. And lastly, “the hoi polloi”. That is Greek for the common man. “Hoi” means “the” essentially. So that one I would tend to agree is redundant. Hoi polloi, unlike pizza, has not yet become a naturalized English word or phrase. And so yes, people should use it the right way. Yet, I do still hear sometimes the best of speakers still use the initial “the”. So again, I just don’t know what to say. Well, those are my humble opinions. Do they conflict with any of yours? :):):)🙂 ---
**Author:** ![elfkin477](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a9a28c/32.png) [@elfkin477](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elfkin477)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 10:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pizza-pie-is-not-redundant/765177/2 "2016-09-06T10:51:45Z")
What’s the difference in meaning between pizza and pizza pie? If there isn’t any, and I don’t see that adding pie changes anyone’s understanding of what you’re referring to, the addition of pie is unnecessary. ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 11:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pizza-pie-is-not-redundant/765177/3 "2016-09-06T11:08:28Z")
But of course “pizza pie” is not redundant. A slice of pizza is pizza, and it’s not a pizza pie. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pizza-pie-is-not-redundant/765177/4 "2016-09-06T11:14:08Z")
What about when the hoi go to L.A. to visit the La Brea Tar? The Hoi —_band name!_ ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pizza-pie-is-not-redundant/765177/5 "2016-09-06T11:15:05Z")
> [@elfkin477](#): > > What’s the difference in meaning between pizza and pizza pie? If there isn’t any, and I don’t see that adding pie changes anyone’s understanding of what you’re referring to, the addition of pie is unnecessary. A pizza is a type of pie, but not all pizzas are pies. French bread pizza, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 11:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pizza-pie-is-not-redundant/765177/6 "2016-09-06T11:22:40Z")
Tuna fish. Chai tea. Pizza pie. It’s practically a Chinese approach to noun formation. Because Chinese has such a restricted number of possible syllables, with many different homonyms piled up any given syllable, the norm is to pair up each noun, verb, or adjective with another word closely related in meaning to disambiguate. The compound then becomes the standard word for a thing even though in Old Chinese one syllable per word was the norm (before all those homonyms developed). That’s the same reason for the expression “ink pen” to distinguish writing implements from straight/clothes/hair/bobby/bowling pins, for those whose dialect makes a homonym of pen and pin. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pizza-pie-is-not-redundant/765177/7 "2016-09-06T11:33:19Z")
But on second thought the Chinese homonym thing is a different reason from compounding words to explain a recently-borrowed, possibly still unfamiliar for some people, foreign word. When Beverley Cleary wrote her Beezus and Ramona stories in the 1950s, and had two characters say “Mommy, can we have pizza pie?” “We don’t have enough money for pizza pie” when I read that when I was 8 or 9 I instinctively perceived they talk that way because pizza wasn’t yet very common in the 1950s in Oregon, where Cleary set her stories, though it was surely commonplace in New York City already then. Same deal with “chai tea”—not everybody in outer Nebraska had ever heard the word \*chai \*in their lives and it was felt many Americans needed the tautology to understand it when it was first popularized over here. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pizza-pie-is-not-redundant/765177/8 "2016-09-06T11:33:31Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > Tuna fish. That’s put there to avoid confusion with the [Elvish hill](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tirion) 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Peremensoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ce7236/32.png) [@Peremensoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peremensoe)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 12:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pizza-pie-is-not-redundant/765177/9 "2016-09-06T12:26:05Z")
> [@Nava](#): > > But of course “pizza pie” is not redundant. A slice of pizza is pizza, and it’s not a pizza pie. But a slice is not _a_ pizza. ---
**Author:** ![kferr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/71e660/32.png) [@kferr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kferr)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pizza-pie-is-not-redundant/765177/10 "2016-09-06T12:49:02Z")
Is referring to a pizza as a pie a regional thing? To my ear it makes the speaker/writer sound like the most pretentious hipster wanker possible. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pizza-pie-is-not-redundant/765177/11 "2016-09-06T12:58:14Z")
> [@kferr](#): > > Is referring to a pizza as a pie a regional thing? To my ear it makes the speaker/writer sound like the most pretentious hipster wanker possible. It’s regional, as far as I know, and nothing to due with pretentious hipsterism (at least it wasn’t for me). I grew up in a working class neighborhood in the 80s, and “pie” was a common synonym for pizza. (As in, “whaddaya want on your pie?”) We didn’t really use “pizza pie” as much, to my recollection, although I was familiar with the phrase. That one we might use more tongue-in-cheek in a mock Italian accent, like “Whattaya want-a on your pizza- pie-a?” That said, we do have a literal “pizza pie” here in Chicago–or, well, [“pizza pot pie,”](https://roadfood.com/restaurants/chicago-pizza-and-oven-grinder-company/) I guess. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pizza-pie-is-not-redundant/765177/12 "2016-09-06T13:01:54Z")
Similar to the pizza issue, there’s shrimp scampi and spumoni ice cream. Scampi and spumoni are Italian words that mean shrimp and ice cream, so the terms appear to be redundant. But I’d argue they’re not. Scampi and spumoni in English are not general terms as they are in Italian. In English, they specify a particular type of shrimp or ice cream. Shrimp scampi is not the same as shrimp louis or shrimp alfredo and spumoni ice cream is not the same as maple walnut ice cream or fudge ripple ice cream. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pizza-pie-is-not-redundant/765177/13 "2016-09-06T13:55:07Z")
I dunno. A whole pizza may in fact be a pie, but the term “pizza pie”, to me, sounds a lot like “hamburger sandwich”. ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 2:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pizza-pie-is-not-redundant/765177/14 "2016-09-06T14:39:41Z")
the only pizza I would consider calling a “pizza pie” is that casserole-like thing called “Chicago-style.” as far as I can remember, the only use of “pizza pie” I can recall ever hearing was its use as a rhyming device in “That’s Amore.” ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pizza-pie-is-not-redundant/765177/15 "2016-09-06T14:41:33Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I dunno. A whole pizza may in fact be a pie, but the term “pizza pie”, to me, sounds a lot like “hamburger sandwich”. I was going to say pretty much this until I noticed you had beat me to it. ---
**Author:** ![Gary\_T](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Gary\_T](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gary_T)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pizza-pie-is-not-redundant/765177/16 "2016-09-06T14:44:57Z")
**“When the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie…”** From the song “That’s Amore,” a big hit in 1953 for Dean Martin. Martin, who presumably knew a thing or two about Italian heritage, didn’t seem to have a problem with it. Actually, I question the premise. Online translators translate _pizza_ as _pizza_, whether going from Italian to English or vice versa, suggesting that _pizza_ does NOT mean _pie_ in Italian. _Pie_ in English is translated as _torta_. I suspect that pizza in Italian refers to a particular type of pie, and that one cannot make a reasonable case that “pizza pie” is redundant. Googling on _“pizza pie”_ yields lots of results. It may not be ubiquitous but it certainly not uncommon. [This site](http://english.stackexchange.com/questions/263732/where-does-pizza-pie-originate) has more info. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pizza-pie-is-not-redundant/765177/17 "2016-09-06T14:57:58Z")
“Soda pop.” ---
**Author:** ![jz78817](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jz78817/32/1028_2.png) [@jz78817](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jz78817)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pizza-pie-is-not-redundant/765177/18 "2016-09-06T14:59:55Z")
> [@Gary\_T](#): > > **“When the moon hits your eye like a big pizza pie…”** “When you wade through a creek, and an eel bites your cheek, that’s a moray!” > [@susan](#): > > “Soda pop.” tuna fish. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pizza-pie-is-not-redundant/765177/19 "2016-09-06T15:28:22Z")
> [@kferr](#): > > Is referring to a pizza as a pie a regional thing? To my ear it makes the speaker/writer sound like the most pretentious hipster wanker possible. In New Jersey, from a New York Italian family I can say it’s a long standing regional use and not even close to hipsterspeak. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2016, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pizza-pie-is-not-redundant/765177/20 "2016-09-06T15:31:01Z")
> [@jz78817](#): > > “When you wade through a creek, and an eel bites your cheek, that’s a moray!” When King Kong has gone flat, rent the film Vampire Bat. That’s some more Wray. He’s a clown, he’s a ham, and his name’s Amsterdam, that’s a Morey. Thank you Spider Robinson. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/pizza-pie-is-not-redundant/765177.md?page=2)