# Placating Deaniacs **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2005, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739 "2005-12-08T19:12:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [December 8, 2005, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/21 "2005-12-08T23:13:45Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Why is everyone so defensive? Dude, I would hardly characterize the mere pointing out of an error of logic on your part to be defensiveness; while I may lean more Democratic than Republican, I have no particular allegiance to Howard Dean as an individual, nor do I feel compelled to accept everything he says as an accurate expression of my political stance. Your premise apparently is that Mr. Dean is somehow roughly equivalent to a Communist revolutionary associated with mass murder. The factual support that you have presented for this notion is somewhat lacking, to say the least. Since you seem to have come up with this notion on only the flimsiest of evidence, I doubt anything further I might say would sway you in this regard. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 12:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/22 "2005-12-09T00:10:11Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Yes I do. [And I am not alone](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/search.php?searchid=1312058). Here’s what I see: A Straight Dope header with an error message: “Sorry - no matches. Please try some different terms.” I think you may be alone. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/23 "2005-12-09T00:17:29Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Point to one that **you** consider bad so we can see what are you talking about, and lets see if you do take into consideration the explanations on those “examples” that prove your “little Lenin” accusation. It is so far a very silly one… You misunderstand again. I made a certain statement. Some people said that they can’t see where I’m coming from and then accused me of evasiveness for not explaining myself. So I explained myself, handsome brave upstanding fellow as I am. Therefore the title. It’s for the Deaniacs, you see. You can do whatever. You simply call my views silly, it’s fine. You want to go and tear my views to shreds, I will read everything you have to say diligently and try to learn a lesson. So it’s up to you. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/24 "2005-12-09T00:23:10Z")
> [@El\_Kabong](#): > > I doubt anything further I might say would sway you in this regard. It might, I assure you. Although I noticed nobody really wants to explin Dean’s actions… ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/25 "2005-12-09T00:27:13Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Here’s what I see: A Straight Dope header with an error message: “Sorry - no matches. Please try some different terms.” > > I think you may be alone. Lazy bones. [Is Howard Dean screwing up as DNC chairman?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=318024&highlight=Dean) [Wager on Dean’s effectiveness](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=302468&highlight=Dean) [Should Howard Dean, the DNC chairman, be censured for this statement?](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=302571&highlight=Dean) [Howard Dean is insane](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=235801&highlight=Dean) ---
**Author:** ![marshmallow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@marshmallow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/marshmallow)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/26 "2005-12-09T00:39:02Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > However, I am not ready to remove my ‘little Lenin’ comparison just yet. Personally, I think Lenin was one of the greatest scumbags in history: power obsessed maniac, lying about everybody and everything, wreaking havoc and destruction everywhere he went with the only goal of obtaining power. He was always on the sidelines, always divisive, inflammatory, trying to pit social groups against each other; he never accomplished anything positive and grabbed undeserved credit for actions of other decent people. Contemporaries attest that listening to Lenin was like watching a tornado; the main message of his speeches was destruction of everything. Yet Lenin enjoyed faithful following of narrow-minded, angry and credulous people, willing to do his bidding. That’s my take on Lenin and I think Mr. Dean bears a small resemblance. Sure! A candle also bears a small resemblance to the sun. The problem is that no one appears to know what you’re talking about when you assign these qualities to Dean. I admit to not knowing much about the man – I listen to right wing radio, though, and they love to trot out some random quotes of him at various events and talk about how angry and vile he is (as their spittle hits the mic, of course). And they love his scream – that’s usually on the soundboard, for quick access. So what’chu talkin’ 'bout? ---
**Author:** ![Good\_Egg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/96bed5/32.png) [@Good\_Egg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Good_Egg)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/27 "2005-12-09T00:58:35Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Why is everyone so defensive? > > I thought I was supposed to be the one on defense. > > I made a statement, I was criticized for it, I was called evasive, so I thought I should allow my critics to convince me of my errors. I even offered a fairly balanced and sympathetic article on Mr. Dean. > > You don’t wanna play? Fine by me! Are you being confuswing on purpose? I’d like the Old Iskander back, please. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 1:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/28 "2005-12-09T01:13:32Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > So does this mean it’s OK for us liberals to compare George W. Bush to Hitler? Is there some sort of hive mind working here? I had exactly the same thought. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 1:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/29 "2005-12-09T01:21:07Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > If the former, perhaps you might look over the website for Dean’s organization, Democracy for America – [http://www.democracyforamerica.com/](http://www.democracyforamerica.com/) – and pick out exactly what about their message/politics/attitude you find objectionable, and please be specific. **New Iskander** has dropped the ball here. Hell, who am I kidding, he doesn’t realize that the ball exists, he’s over in a corner skipping an imaginary rope. But I’ll pick it up. I’ve got an exact problem with Dean’s message/politics/attitude. His organization is called Democracy for America, but other than being for “America” it’s not for **anything**. I’ve looked over that site, and I’ve listened to Dean be interviewed, and no matter how softball the questions come at him, he never gives specific proposals. That’s rubbish. I like Dean and I want to support him, but I’m not going to support him if all he does is point out Bush’s flaws. I **know** Bush’s flaws, and so do the majority of Americans. What I want to know is, what does he **support**? Specific proposals. Dean, as near as I can tell, lacks these. I want them. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 1:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/30 "2005-12-09T01:24:50Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > So does this mean it’s OK for us liberals to compare George W. Bush to Hitler? First you do it like 11E+11 times, then ask permission. You are not fooling noone, you know… ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/31 "2005-12-09T01:28:39Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > **New Iskander** has dropped the ball here. Hell, who am I kidding, he doesn’t realize that the ball exists, he’s over in a corner skipping an imaginary rope. But I’ll pick it up… > > …I like Dean and I want to support him, but I’m not going to support him if all he does is point out Bush’s flaws. I **know** Bush’s flaws, and so do the majority of Americans. What I want to know is, what does he **support**? > > Specific proposals. Dean, as near as I can tell, lacks these. I want them. > > Daniel So when Mr. Dean is making Wild Ass statements, it’s no big deal, but if I do, it suddenly is? Typical… Anyway, may I go now? ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/32 "2005-12-09T01:34:55Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > So when Mr. Dean is making Wild Ass statements, it’s no big deal, but if I do, it suddenly is? Typical… Typical, as in, you behaved in your typical fashion and completing misunderstood what someone said? Perhaps. Given that my post reserved its most serious criticism for Dean (if only because I take him seriously), your martyr-act is ridiculous. > [@](#): > > Anyway, may I go now? With my blessing. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/33 "2005-12-09T01:36:15Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Nothing. Fine. A truer statement was never made on the SDMB. -Joe ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/34 "2005-12-09T01:46:11Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Contemporaries attest that listening to Lenin was like watching a tornado; the main message of his speeches was destruction of everything. Yet Lenin enjoyed faithful following of narrow-minded, angry and credulous people, willing to do his bidding. That’s my take on Lenin and I think Mr. Dean bears a small resemblance. Personally, if one were casting about for persons comparable to Lenin, based on the above description Ann Coulter would be a much better choice. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/35 "2005-12-09T01:51:43Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Typical, as in, you behaved in your typical fashion and completing misunderstood what someone said? Perhaps. Given that my post reserved its most serious criticism for Dean (if only because I take him seriously), your martyr-act is ridiculous. > > With my blessing. > Daniel I understand what you are saying. I simply find it extremely ironic that I ask to be educated about Dean and nobody wants to do it. I didn’t come here to be criticized for my shortcomings. I came to learn about Dean. Mysterious stranger slipped me a note, saying, “Be at the graveyard behind the old Abbey just before the Sun, if you have honour”, so I came. I see a crowd of idle spectators, jeering at me, but where is a worthy opponent? Anyway, I gotta go. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/36 "2005-12-09T02:49:17Z")
This is a Great Debate? The OP gives his perception of Dean as “an angry, divisive and extremely inflammatory political figure,” says he was called on it in the Pit, proceeds to compare him to Lenin (based on, apparently, nothing but his own perceptions of the two), sets up a “true believer” alternative, than asserts, out of the clear blue or the depths of his own colorectal extremities, that “whether it’s the former or the latter, my comparison remains appropriate.” And then wants to be educated about Mr. Dean. Forgive me, but you are quite as able to load and use Google as any of the rest of us. **Educate yourself** about Mr. Dean. Take into account that he is heading the out-of-power political party, and as such is _supposed_ to be strongly critical of perceived missteps by the party in power; **that’s his job**. When come back, bring plausible proposition for debate. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/37 "2005-12-09T03:07:59Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > **Educate yourself** about Mr. Dean. Take into account that he is heading the out-of-power political party, and as such is _supposed_ to be strongly critical of perceived missteps by the party in power; **that’s his job**. Actually, I’d say it’s half of his job: the other half is to provide an alternative vision of what could be going on. He’s doing the criticism part of his job fine, but I’m unimpressed with the vision thing. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/38 "2005-12-09T03:19:53Z")
Nonsense. The Chairman of the DNC (or the RNC) isn’t supposed to be a shadow president, coming up with alternative policies and the like. He’s supposed to be a partisan cheerleader and bombthrower who raises boatloads of cash for his side. That’s all, nothing more, end of story. Do you honestly think that Ken Melman, Lee Atwater, Terry McAuliffe, Ron Brown, Haley Barbour, or any other party chairman in the last twenty years, spent more than ten seconds thinking about _policies?_ In what bizarro universe is someone who helps people run political campaigns supposed to figure out how to get out of Iraq, fix the budget, or save Social Security? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/39 "2005-12-09T03:22:42Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > So even you consider Lenin a decent man, you must agree that it is possible for a decent man’s intentions to go terribly wrong. I don’t consider Lenin a decent man, but yes, of course that’s possible. > [@](#): > > When Mr. Dean is condemning Tom DeLay to jail without a court sentence, he may be deliberately violating the presumption of innocence; when he call all Republicans rich and racist, he may be deliberately engaging in inflammatory talk, calculated to pitch digfferent social groups against each other. Or is he just losing his head sometimes? > > Both may be dangerous trends. Howard Dean is one man, **Iskander**. He’s not even an elected official - he’s a former governor of a small state and a failed candidate for President - so I am not at all concerned about how his remark will affect Tom Delay’s Constitutional presumption of innocence. He’s neither the first nor the last person to make those comments about Delay or Republicans. To suggest that Dean wields 1/100th the malice or power that Lenin did in the Soviet Union is just laughable. ---
**Author:** ![Merijeek](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f05b48/32.png) [@Merijeek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Merijeek)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/40 "2005-12-09T03:30:53Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Actually, I’d say it’s half of his job: the other half is to provide an alternative vision of what could be going on. He’s doing the criticism part of his job fine, but I’m unimpressed with the vision thing. Mostly a waste of capital. Look at it objectively - which one will get more exposure, something inflammatory against the other party or a five point plan on how to make things better? Exactly. -Joe [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739.md?page=3)