# Placating Deaniacs **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2005, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739 "2005-12-08T19:12:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/61 "2005-12-09T18:47:55Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > šŸ˜• Heā€™s talking about Barack Obama. His spoken-word version of his book is up for a Grammy, which would make him the third Democrat (after both Clintons) to win that award in recent years. Unless he means Stevie Wonder. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/62 "2005-12-09T20:26:49Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > So does this mean itā€™s OK for us liberals to compare George W. Bush to Hitler? You saw [this](http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2005/12/howard_dean_sla.html) too? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/63 "2005-12-09T20:28:20Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > I donā€™t think itā€™s fair to blame Lenin for stuff that happened after he died. Thatā€™s like blaming Jesus for the Crusades. And your statement is equivalent to assertion that Lincoln has nothing to do with Civil Rights Act of 1964. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/64 "2005-12-09T20:32:58Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > And your statement is equivalent to assertion that Lincoln has nothing to do with > Civil Rights Act of 1964. Lincoln would have been **horrified** by the Civil Rights Act! ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2005, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/65 "2005-12-09T20:57:33Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > And your statement is equivalent to assertion that Lincoln has nothing to do with > Civil Rights Act of 1964. Allowing white supremacy in the South to thrive after reconstruction is what made the Civil Rights Act necessary later: [http://www.rit.edu/~nrcgsh/bx/bx06b.html](http://www.rit.edu/~nrcgsh/bx/bx06b.html) > [@](#): > > Reconstruction and Its Failure > ā€¦ > The one achievement of Reconstruction had been to guarantee > minimum of political and civil rights to the ex-slave, but white > supremacy advocates were adamant in their intention to destroy > this advance. Where terror and intimidation were not successful, > relentless economic pressure by landowners, merchants, and > industrialists brought most of the ex-slaves into line. Year by > year they exerted less influence at the voting booths. > Although the country was aware of this, Northern liberals were > growing weary of the unending fight to protect the freedman. > Furthermore, masses of Northern whites sympathized with Southern > race prejudice. While they did approve of ending slavery, they > were not willing to extend social and political equality. The > North had begun to put a higher priority on peace than on > justice. Industrialists were expanding their businesses rapidly, > and they wanted the South to be pacified, so that it would be a > safe area for investment and expansion. If this meant returning > power to white conservatives, they were willing to pay the > price. The presidential election of 1876 degenerated into chaos > and confusion. Samuel J. Tilden, the Democratic candidate, and > Rutherford B. Hayes, the Republican, disputed its results. > Democrats and Republicans both claimed twenty electoral votes > from Georgia, Louisiana, South Carolina, and Florida. The first > returns had shown that Tilden was the victor, but Republicans, > especially Army veterans, warned that they would not accept such > a result. The Republicans represented themselves as the party of > the Union, and they claimed that the Democrats were the party of > secession. The debate grew so heated that it appeared war could > erupt again. Pessimists warned that it would be the last free > election in American history. After months of bickering, a > compromise was reached. The South was willing to support > Republican Hayes if, when in power, he would remove the troops > and restore home rule. The votes were counted again in the four > states in question, and all twenty were awarded to Hayes allowing > him to win by one electoral vote. > > Hayes began on an ambivalent note. On one hand he said that the > country must have honest and equal government, This would appear > to be a concession to the South which complained vehemently > about the supposed corruption of black Reconstruction. On the > other hand, he admitted that the rights of blacks must be > protected by the Federal Government. In practice, however, by > returning the South to home rule, he abandoned the ex-slave. He > said that the ex-slaveā€™s interest would be best protected by > being left in the hands of honest and influential Southern > whites. Hayes had expressed an awareness of the brutality and > intimidation which still continued in the South, but he had > apparently concluded that federal intervention only aggravated > the problem. In his opinion Southern gentlemen were not thieves > and cut-throats; they too were educated, civilized, and > Christians. The fact that they were not aware of the brutality in > their midst and that some of them undoubtedly participated in it, > bewildered him. He was willing to proceed on the assumption that, > if the Southern whites were left alone, they would, as they > asserted, treat the ex-slave honestly and fairly. Hayes seemed > unaware that men could be educated, civilized, and claim to be > Christians while at the same time behaving as bigots and racists. > To satisfy the industrialists in the North and the white > conservatives in the South, Hayes buried the last remains of > Reconstruction. However, he made a one-sided compromise. While he > committed himself to immediate action, the South was only bound > by vague promises to be fulfilled at some indefinite date. At the > end of his term white supremacy in the South was more firmly > rooted than it had been when he took office Like \*\*BrainGlutton \*\* said, Lincoln would have been horrified by the act, freeing the slaves was not the same as ensuring they had the same rights after being freed. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/66 "2005-12-10T00:39:23Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > You saw [this](http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2005/12/howard_dean_sla.html) too? Wow. Just wow. That website was just weird. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/67 "2005-12-10T00:41:43Z")
I have a simple question. If Bush and Cheneyā€™s plan is so well defined and so successful (hahahahaha), then why should there be a need for anyone else to come up with a new plan, a better plan, or any plan at all? Stay the course (hahahahaha). ---
**Author:** ![lee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lee/32/7455_2.png) [@lee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lee)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/68 "2005-12-10T04:33:11Z")
I am not a he. I think that he should not wait that long. He strikes me a more RFK than Gipper. ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/69 "2005-12-10T07:24:49Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > No, thatā€™s still outlawed by the Godwin amendment. But you can compare him to Stalin. Fair? No, Il Duce or Franco would be the appropriate one. Extreme right wing is Facism, of which Nazism is a subset. However, since Nazism has inherent racism, then a facist leader would be quite apporiate for a Bush comparison, assuming we wanted to go there. ---
**Author:** ![RTFirefly](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/c77e96/32.png) [@RTFirefly](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RTFirefly)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/70 "2005-12-10T11:29:19Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Wow. Just wow. That website was just weird. And sheā€™s one of Pajamas Mediaā€™s featured bloggers, so sheā€™s not some total nobody. But yeah, sheā€™s _weeeeiiiiiirrrd_. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/71 "2005-12-10T13:43:31Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > First, you could get Jesus, Elvis, or Bill Clinton in as party chairman and it wouldnā€™t change the job. Dean is there to raise money and find candidates to run against Republicans. Thatā€™s a full time job, and oneā€™s fame does not change it. In any case, you are right, Dean probably is the most well known chairman in many decades, although Scoop Jackson and Bob Dole had made their entrance on the national stage. But fame alone doesnā€™t make someone the best person to put forward on issues. The thing is, he IS putting forth issues of a sort. If he werenā€™t constantly in the media criticizing Republicans on specific points, then Iā€™d agree with you that itā€™s not his job to put forward a positive plan. But heā€™s made it his job to criticize Republicans, and as such, heā€™s got more of a role in shaping public perception of Democrats than previous party chairmen. Have him back away from the spotlight, and iā€™ll back away from my criticism of him. But whoever is front and center for the Democrats needs to be using that spotlight to offer a positive agenda. It so happens that Dean has placed himself front and center, so he needs to use the spotlight. Daniel ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/72 "2005-12-10T14:23:23Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > The thing is, he IS putting forth issues of a sort. If he werenā€™t constantly in the media criticizing Republicans on specific points, then Iā€™d agree with you that itā€™s not his job to put forward a positive plan. But heā€™s made it his job to criticize Republicans, and as such, heā€™s got more of a role in shaping public perception of Democrats than previous party chairmen. See the part about being a cheerleader. Just because you have no policy role doesnā€™t mean you are supposed to be mute. If you think that previous party chairmen didnā€™t go on TV, give interviews, and bash the other party, well, I canā€™t help you. Harry Reid was on CNN yesterday and asked just this same question, what is Deanā€™s role vis a vis Iraq and soforth. Reidā€™s response : ā€œREID: And he understands that his job is to do what he can to energize Democrats at a grassroots level around the country, to raise money for the DNC and leave the policy-making to the Democrats in the House and the Senate. He understands that.ā€ [Link.](http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0512/09/sitroom.01.html) Thatā€™s what Iā€™m saying, thatā€™s what Democrats want him to do, and thatā€™s what he is doing. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/73 "2005-12-10T16:16:26Z")
> [@HPL](#): > > No, Il Duce or Franco would be the appropriate one. Extreme right wing is Facism, of which Nazism is a subset. However, since Nazism has inherent racism, then a facist leader would be quite apporiate for a Bush comparison, assuming we wanted to go there. Ignorance rises its ugly head again. It was established once and for all on this board that Nazis were Left wing Socialists. Hitlerā€™s party name was NSDAP (National Social Democrat Workers Party). Compare with Leninā€™s party name RSDRP(b) (Russian Social Democrat Workers Party (bolsheviks)). Il Duce was fervent Socialist originally. _Fascio_ is Italian word for Unity. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/74 "2005-12-10T16:23:07Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > It was established once and for all on this board that Nazis were Left wing Socialists. The Nazi party is not socialist, despite the [intentionally deceptive name](http://www.spartacus.schoolnet.co.uk/GERnazi.htm): > [@](#): > > In April, 1920, Hitler advocated that the party should change its name to the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP). Hitler had always been hostile to socialist ideas, especially those that involved racial or sexual equality. However, socialism was a popular political philosophy in Germany after the First World War. This was reflected in the growth in the German Social Democrat Party (SDP), the largest political party in Germany. > > Hitler, therefore redefined socialism by placing the word ā€˜Nationalā€™ before it. He claimed he was only in favour of equality for those who had ā€œGerman bloodā€. Jews and other ā€œaliensā€ would lose their rights of citizenship, and immigration of non-Germans should be brought to an end. > > In February 1920, the NSDAP published its first programme which became known as the ā€œTwenty-Five Pointsā€. In the programme the party refused to accept the terms of the Versailles Treaty and called for the reunification of all German people. To reinforce their ideas on nationalism, equal rights were only to be given to German citizens. ā€œForeignersā€ and ā€œaliensā€ would be denied these rights. > > To appeal to the working class and socialists, the programme included several measures that would redistribute income and war profits, profit-sharing in large industries, nationalization of trusts, increases in old-age pensions and free education. > > On 24th February, 1920, the NSDAP (later nicknamed the Nazi Party) held a mass rally where it announced its new programme. The rally was attended by over 2,000 people, a great improvement on the 25 people who were at Hitlerā€™s first party meeting. The Nazi party was a right wing reactionary party that rejected the socialism of Lenin. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/75 "2005-12-10T16:26:42Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Harry Reid was on CNN yesterday and asked just this same question, what is Deanā€™s role vis a vis Iraq and soforth. Reidā€™s response : > > ā€œREID: And he understands that his job is to do what he can to energize Democrats at a grassroots level around the country, to raise money for the DNC and leave the policy-making to the Democrats in the House and the Senate. He understands that.ā€ > > [Link.](http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0512/09/sitroom.01.html) > > Thatā€™s what Iā€™m saying, thatā€™s what Democrats want him to do, and thatā€™s what he is doing. Compare Dr. Dean to his predecessor Terry McAuliffe. Mr. McAuliffe was also making inflammatory statements, to be sure. But Dr. Dean is quite different. Dr. Dean ran for the highest post in US and he developed faithful following among the most radical Left (the kind that view even Clintons as oppressors). Dr. Dean is saying he abandoned his Presidential ambitions and applied for DNC chairman position because he needed a job. Can we believe him? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/76 "2005-12-10T16:31:29Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Dr. Dean ran for the highest post in US and he developed faithful following among the most radical Left (the kind that view even Clintons as oppressors). > > Dr. Dean is saying he abandoned his Presidential ambitions and applied for DNC chairman position because he needed a job. Can we believe him? uhhā€¦ Iā€™m such speechless. I cannot hope to untangle the web of bizarre perceptions in these few short lines. I donā€™t know how to respond. I waive the white flag. I surrender. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/77 "2005-12-10T16:32:05Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > The Nazi party was a right wing reactionary party that rejected the socialism of Lenin. Most left wing parties reject ā€œthe socialism of Leninā€. From your own cite: > [@](#): > > To appeal to the working class and socialists, the programme included several measures that would redistribute income and war profits, profit-sharing in large industries, nationalization of trusts, increases in old-age pensions and free education. Now please show me, which tenets of Right Wing were listed in Naziā€™s programs. Try to draw a single parallel between Naziā€™s written down agenda and GOPā€™s. Simple heart felt conviction that Hitler and you know who are racists will not do. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/78 "2005-12-10T16:33:30Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Dr. Dean is saying he abandoned his Presidential ambitions and applied for DNC chairman position because he needed a job. Can we believe him? Why not? Do you have an alternative explanation? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/79 "2005-12-10T16:37:21Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > uhhā€¦ Iā€™m such speechless. I cannot hope to untangle the web of bizarre perceptions in these few short lines. > > I donā€™t know how to respond. I waive the white flag. I surrender. Whatā€™s so difficult? Just say, do you believe Dr. Dean or not? Do you think heā€™s an honest man, doing his best for his country? Yes or No? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/80 "2005-12-10T16:37:32Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Try to draw a single parallel between Naziā€™s written down agenda and GOPā€™s. I donā€™t think Republicans are Nazis. I know that is hard to believe, coming from someone who believes ā€œDr. Dean ran for the highest post in US and he developed faithful following among the most radical Left (the kind that view even Clintons as oppressors).ā€ You pathetic attempt to re-draw the politcal spectrum to your own twisted philosophy has failed. Again. Once and for all, so to speak. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739.md?page=5)