# Placating Deaniacs **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 8, 2005, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739 "2005-12-08T19:12:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/101 "2005-12-10T23:26:29Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Apparently, you need a reminder that [it was Democrats oppressing ex-slaves in the South for more then 100 years](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_law). And what party are all those bigoted-Democrats in now? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/102 "2005-12-10T23:39:09Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > It was established once and for all on this board that Nazis were Left wing Socialists. And THAT’s why they murdered all those Communists? This was ridiculous when it started and is steadily getting worse. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/103 "2005-12-10T23:40:28Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > [National Socialist Program, also referred to as the 25-point program](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Program) > > There is not a single right wing item on the Nazi social, economic and political agenda. The Big German industrialists gave the power to Hitler and in exchange they survived the war, the so-called nationalization was a sham. Virtually everything what the Nazis said early was a sham. The reality was that they ended up looking extremely right wing, walking extremely right wing, and sounding extremely right wing. We recognize them as the extreme right for their works, not for that they said, you are just swallowing propaganda, and out of date propaganda to boot. > [@](#): > > Your logic is: Nazis were bad, Right wingers are bad, therefore Nazis are Right wing. You have no logic here. > [@](#): > > Apparently, you need a reminder that [it was Democrats oppressing ex-slaves in the South for more then 100 years](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Crow_law). 4 words to show that once again you are way out of date: “We lost the south” - LBJ If you can not get into your mind that parties change in the USA you are beyond help. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 10, 2005, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/104 "2005-12-10T23:46:29Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > It was established once and for all on this board that Nazis were Left wing Socialists. > [@Marley23](#): > > And THAT’s why they murdered all those Communists? > > This was ridiculous when it started and is steadily getting worse. Not to mention that what **NI** said remains a lie unless he can point out who or what thread established that “once and for all” in the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/105 "2005-12-11T00:03:26Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > And THAT’s why they murdered all those Communists? Weren’t Communists slaughtering other Socialists? Internecine wars are often the bloodiest. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/106 "2005-12-11T00:06:51Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > The reality was that they ended up looking extremely right wing, walking extremely right wing, and sounding extremely right wing. Support your statement about looks, walks and sounds with cites, please. > [@GIGObuster](#): > > We recognize them as the extreme right for their works, not for that they said… Which works, specifically? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/107 "2005-12-11T00:08:39Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > [National Socialist Program, also referred to as the 25-point program](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Socialist_Program) > > There is not a single right wing item on the Nazi social, economic and political agenda. As usual, you missed the point; the 25 point plan was propaganda to secure votes from the poor and working class. It was never intended to be implemented. From your cite: > [@](#): > > This was an important part of the party’s propaganda campaign, since it raised their support among the working class, by making the party appear to have, in William Brustein’s words, a “working-class orientation”. However, Hitler was careful to also make it clear that “the NSDAP stands on the platform of private ownership”. Private ownership is not a tenet of socialism. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/108 "2005-12-11T00:15:47Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Support your statement about looks, walks and sounds with cites, please. > > Which works, specifically? [http://www.mises.org/upcomingstory.aspx?control=75](http://www.mises.org/upcomingstory.aspx?control=75) > [@](#): > > Whenever the fascists came to power in Europe, they banned the work of the Austrian economists. The reason: the Austrians wrote as vehemently against “right-wing” central planning as against old-fashioned left-wing socialism. While many are alert to the dangers of socialism, **far fewer know of the danger of fascism, which might be defined as economic regimentation toward monopolized state capitalism.** > > The word fascism is so often used as a swear word that we might sometimes forget that it really did exist as a system of political economy, and it continues to exist as a policy tendency. Like socialism, it took on different forms in different countries. Its spirit continues to exert a huge influence on the organization of economic life today. > > As in the 1930s, it is assumed that the economy must be managed by the either the right or the left: socialism or fascism is our choice. Just as important, fascist-style thinking has experienced resurgence. One is just as likely today to find critics of the market economy on the right as on the left. Whereas the left wants to wreck the free market for the sake of equality and fairness, **the right wants central planning for war, cultural renewal, and national pride.** Both choices come at the expense of liberty. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/109 "2005-12-11T00:30:24Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Support your statement about looks, walks and sounds with cites, please. > **[Nazism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nazism)** > > Nazism (/ˈnɑːtsiɪzəm, ˈnæt-/ NA(H)T-see-iz-əm), officially National Socialism (German: Nationalsozialismus, \[natsi̯oˈnaːlzotsi̯aˌlɪsmʊs\]), is the ideology and practices associated with Adolf Hitler and the Nazi Party (German: Nationalsozialistische Deutsche Arbeiterpartei, NSDAP; or National Socialist German Workers' Party in English) in Nazi Germany. During Hitler's rise to power in 1930s Europe, it was frequently referred to as Hitlerism. The later related term "Neo-Nazism" is applied to oth... > [@](#): > > Support of anti-Communists for Fascism and Nazism > Various right-wing politicians and political parties in Europe welcomed the rise of fascism and the Nazis out of an intense aversion towards Communism. According to them, Hitler was the savior of Western civilization and of capitalism against Bolshevism. During the later 1930s and 1940s, the Nazis were supported by the Falange movement in Spain, and by political and military figures who would form the government of Vichy France. A Legion of French Volunteers against Bolshevism (LVF) and other anti-Soviet fighting formations were formed. > > The British Conservative party and the right-wing parties in France appeased the Nazi regime in the mid- and late-1930s, even though they had begun to criticise its totalitarianism. However Britain under both Conservative and Labour had appeased pre-Nazi Germany as well. Left-wing contemporary commentators suggested that these parties did in fact support the Nazis. Important reasons behind this appeasement included, first, the erroneous assumption that Hitler had no desire to precipitate another world war, and second, when the rebirth of the German military could no longer be ignored, a well-founded concern that neither Britain nor France was yet ready to fight an all-out war against Germany. The early intervension of Hitler in Spain showed what the Facists and the Nazis were fighting for and against. > [@](#): > > Which works, specifically? As already mentioned. And what \*\*Fear Itself \*\* said. And you are officially a liar for not comming with a cite for your “established” ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 1:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/110 "2005-12-11T01:39:28Z")
> [@Fear Itself](#): > > From your cite:Private ownership is not a tenet of socialism. How many Socialist parties in the world reject Private Property rights, except Communists? ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/111 "2005-12-11T01:40:31Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > And you are officially a liar for not comming with a cite for your “established” How can I? You are the living proof of my error. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/112 "2005-12-11T01:54:48Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > How many Socialist parties in the world reject Private Property rights, except Communists? You are still quoting the 25 point plan as though it represents what the Nazis stood for. When come back, bring clue. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/113 "2005-12-11T01:59:33Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Weren’t Communists slaughtering other Socialists? Socialists did fight each other at times, but WWII was hardly an internecine battle between socialists. I kind of saw their policy of sending Communists to internment camps as an attempt to exterminate them, not a difference in their interpretations of Marx. (Come to think of it, you’d think racists like the Nazis would be hesitant follow the teachings of Marx.) ---
**Author:** ![HPL](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3da27b/32.png) [@HPL](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HPL)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 7:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/114 "2005-12-11T07:32:25Z")
[QUOTE=New Iskander Your logic is: Nazis were bad, Right wingers are bad, therefore Nazis are Right wing. You stiil insist that Republicans are Nazis because they are both racist. [/QUOTE] Apparently you have a reading comprehension problem. 1. I pointed out several ways in which the right and nazis are similar, because that’s what you asked for. 2. I never said Republicans were racist. I said, and I still say, that Republicans have more in common then facists then nazis because Racism in an inherent part of Nazism, but not facism. Since Facism is a right wing ideology without inherent racism, it would be more correct to compare Republicans to a facist dictator then to a Nazi one. I never said Republicans are racist. You’re the one who keeps playing the race card and trying to accuse me of doing so. BTW, I’m still waiting to see some kind of proof that nazis were leftist or at least a legitmate cite from this board that has proven such(as you said, it’s been proven on this board). Granted, I do feel the right wing is morally bankrupt, because I was around the right wing long enough to realize it. I was proudly part of the right wing for years until people like you convinced me how morally bankrupt it is and forced me to renouce those leanings. ---
**Author:** ![New\_Iskander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/db5fbb/32.png) [@New\_Iskander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/New_Iskander)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/115 "2005-12-11T18:10:09Z")
> [@HPL](#): > > Granted, I do feel the right wing is morally bankrupt, because I was around the right wing long enough to realize it. I was proudly part of the right wing for years until people like you convinced me how morally bankrupt it is and forced me to renouce those leanings. Time to summarize. I asked you to support your statement about Nazis being originally Right wing with proof from their written programme. You couldn’t do that, but countered that Nazis Left wing agenda is all lies, calculated to deceive the workers and the poor. You further stated that Nazis and Right wing are both all racist, mono-cultural and anti-gay, therefore Nazis are Right wing. I gave you an example that Dems could be also racist. You said it’s irrelevant. I shall now proceed to prove once and for all that you are an Evil Thing from Outer Space. The fact that you always behaved in human manner and never expressed support for Evil Things from Outer Space means nothing, because you are simply dissembling in order to deceive us and garner our sympathies. Besides you are extraordinarily strong and/or exceedingly handsome in superhuman way, which is a clear mark of some Evil Extra terrestrials. Your protestations that some normal people can also be strong and handsome avail nothing, because you are the Evil Things from Outer Space. We found you out. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/116 "2005-12-11T18:18:03Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > You are free to demonstrate Right wing pedigree of Nazi party by providing a single Right wing position of theirs, such as cuts on welfare and education, privatization of industries and so on. But it is only in a contemporary American context that the minimal-statism you mention is considered “right wing”. The phrase means a lot of different things, now, and I’m sure, in 1936. It would do you good to review this page: [http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political\_spectrum](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_spectrum) ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/117 "2005-12-11T18:22:57Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > …It was established once and for all on this board that Nazis were Left wing Socialists… Ever gonna back this up? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/118 "2005-12-11T18:26:55Z")
As for the difference between socialism and fascism, George Orwell said it best, in 1941, in _The Lion and the Unicorn: Socialism and the English Genius_ – [http://orwell.ru/library/essays/lion/english/e\_saw:](http://orwell.ru/library/essays/lion/english/e_saw:) > [@](#): > > What this war has demonstrated is that private capitalism – that is, an economic system in which land, factories, mines and transport are owned privately and operated solely for profit – does not work. It cannot deliver the goods. This fact had been known to millions of people for years past, but nothing ever came of it, because there was no real urge from below to alter the system, and those at the top had trained themselves to be impenetrably stupid on just this point. Argument and propaganda got one nowhere. The lords of property simply sat on their bottoms and proclaimed that all was for the best. Hitler’s conquest of Europe, however, was a physical debunking of capitalism. War, for all its evil, is at any rate an unanswerable test of strength, like a try-your-grip machine. Great strength returns the penny, and there is no way of faking the result. > > When the nautical screw was first invented, there was a controversy that lasted for years as to whether screw-steamers or paddle-steamers were better. The paddle-steamers, like all obsolete things, had their champions, who supported them by ingenious arguments. Finally, however, a distinguished admiral tied a screw-steamer and a paddle-steamer of equal horsepower stern to stern and set their engines running. That settled the question once and for all. And it was something similar that happened on the fields of Norway and of Flanders. Once and for all it was proved that a planned economy is stronger than a planless one. But it is necessary here to give some kind of definition to those much-abused words, Socialism and Fascism. > > Socialism is usually defined as ‘common ownership of the means of production’. Crudely: the State, representing the whole nation, owns everything, and everyone is a State employee. This does not mean that people are stripped of private possessions such as clothes and furniture, but it does mean that all productive goods, such as land, mines, ships and machinery, are the property of the State. The State is the sole large-scale producer. It is not certain that Socialism is in all ways superior to capitalism, but it is certain that, unlike capitalism, it can solve the problems of production and consumption. At normal times a capitalist economy can never consume all that it produces, so that there is always a wasted surplus (wheat burned in furnaces, herrings dumped back into the sea etc. etc.) and always unemployment. In time of war, on the other hand, it has difficulty in producing all that it needs, because nothing is produced unless someone sees his way to making a profit out of it. > > In a Socialist economy these problems do not exist. The State simply calculates what goods will be needed and does its best to produce them. Production is only limited by the amount of labour and raw materials. Money, for internal purposes, ceases to be a mysterious all-powerful thing and becomes a sort of coupon or ration-ticket, issued in sufficient quantities to buy up such consumption goods as may be available at the moment. > > However, it has become clear in the last few years that ‘common ownership of the means of production’ is not in itself a sufficient definition of Socialism. One must also add the following: approximate equality of incomes (it need be no more than approximate), political democracy, and abolition of all hereditary privilege, especially in education. These are simply the necessary safeguards against the reappearance of a class-system. Centralized ownership has very little meaning unless the mass of the people are living roughly upon an equal level, and have some kind of control over the government. ‘The State’ may come to mean no more than a self-elected political party, and oligarchy and privilege can return, based on power rather than on money. > > But what then is Fascism? > > Fascism, at any rate the German version, is a form of capitalism that borrows from Socialism just such features as will make it efficient for war purposes. Internally, Germany has a good deal in common with a Socialist state. Ownership has never been abolished, there are still capitalists and workers, and – this is the important point, and the real reason why rich men all over the world tend to sympathize with Fascism – generally speaking the same people are capitalists and the same people workers as before the Nazi revolution. But at the same time the State, which is simply the Nazi Party, is in control of everything. It controls investment, raw materials, rates of interest, working hours, wages. The factory owner still owns his factory, but he is for practical purposes reduced to the status of a manager. Everyone is in effect a State employee, though the salaries vary very greatly. The mere efficiency of such a system, the elimination of waste and obstruction, is obvious. In seven years it has built up the most powerful war machine the world has ever seen. > > But the idea underlying Fascism is irreconcilably different from that which underlies Socialism. Socialism aims, ultimately, at a world-state of free and equal human beings. It takes the equality of human rights for granted. Nazism assumes just the opposite. The driving force behind the Nazi movement is the belief in human inequality, the superiority of Germans to all other races, the right of Germany to rule the world. Outside the German Reich it does not recognize any obligations. Eminent Nazi professors have ‘proved’ over and over again that only nordic man is fully human, have even mooted the idea that non-nordic peoples (such as ourselves) can interbreed with gorillas! Therefore, while a species of war-Socialism exists within the German state, its attitude towards conquered nations is frankly that of an exploiter. The function of the Czechs, Poles, French, etc. is simply to produce such goods as Germany may need, and get in return just as little as will keep them from open rebellion. If we are conquered, our job will probably be to manufacture weapons for Hitler’s forthcoming wars with Russia and America. The Nazis aim, in effect, at setting up a kind of caste system, with four main castes corresponding rather closely to those of the Hindu religion. At the top comes the Nazi party, second come the mass of the German people, third come the conquered European populations. Fourth and last are to come the coloured peoples, the ‘semi-apes’ as Hitler calls them, who are to be reduced quite openly to slavery. > > However horrible this system may seem to us, it works. It works because it is a planned system geared to a definite purpose, world-conquest, and not allowing any private interest, either of capitalist or worker, to stand in its way. British capitalism does not work, because it is a competitive system in which private profit is and must be the main objective. It is a system in which all the forces are pulling in opposite directions and the interests of the individual are as often as not totally opposed to those of the State. ---
**Author:** ![zoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/71c47a/32.png) [@zoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoo)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/119 "2005-12-11T18:38:27Z")
The movie “ **Kelly’s Heroes** ” When discussing how to get the German tank commander to move away from the bank… **CRAPGAME** : So we offer him a deal. **KELLY** (I think): What kind of deal? **CRAPGAME** : A deal, deal. He’s a Republican. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [December 11, 2005, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739/120 "2005-12-11T18:43:05Z")
> [@New Iskander](#): > > Time to summarize. > > I asked you to support your statement about Nazis being originally Right wing with proof from their written programme. > > You couldn’t do that, but countered that Nazis Left wing agenda is all lies, calculated to deceive the workers and the poor. > > You further stated that Nazis and Right wing are both all racist, mono-cultural and anti-gay, therefore Nazis are Right wing. > > I gave you an example that Dems could be also racist. You said it’s irrelevant. > > I shall now proceed to prove once and for all that you are an Evil Thing from Outer Space. > > The fact that you always behaved in human manner and never expressed support for Evil Things from Outer Space means nothing, because you are simply dissembling in order to deceive us and garner our sympathies. > > Besides you are extraordinarily strong and/or exceedingly handsome in superhuman way, which is a clear mark of some Evil Extra terrestrials. Your protestations that some normal people can also be strong and handsome avail nothing, because you are the Evil Things from Outer Space. > > We found you out. :sigh: :rolleyes: , the [Chewbacca defence](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chewbacca_Defense) As silly as ever. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/placating-deaniacs/334739.md?page=7)