# Place names in their native language. Pretentious? **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 8, 2005, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-in-their-native-language-pretentious/325277 "2005-10-08T03:06:03Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Fern\_Forest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/71c47a/32.png) [@Fern\_Forest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fern_Forest)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-in-their-native-language-pretentious/325277/41 "2005-10-09T08:26:39Z")
> [@ColonelDax](#): > > I definitely recall a “Weekend Update” joke along these lines involving Victoria Jackson, is that the one you’re thinking of? I think **LilyoftheValley** is referring to the one with Jimmy Smits who spoke normally while everyone else affected a strong Spanish accent when ordering things like huacamole and it pissed him off. Every now and then I enjoy watching non-English newscasts from various countries cause they go “bluh-blah blah blah California bluh blubh blah bluh Bill Clinton.” It cracks me up. Since it seems your friend was doing it to appear to be worldly in order to impress people I’d say she was pretentious. Not because of what and how she says things but rather why. ---
**Author:** ![zelie\_zelerton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/59ef9b/32.png) [@zelie\_zelerton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zelie_zelerton)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-in-their-native-language-pretentious/325277/42 "2005-10-09T14:08:08Z")
> [@irishgirl](#): > > **zelie zelerton** that would be Dun Laoghaire. > > Actually, you make a valid point. When you are in someone else’s country it is actually a _courtesy_ to pronounce their place names the way they like them to be pronounced…even if you share a common language! > > My life would be more pleasant if tourists would learn to pronounce the names of places and attractions they wish to visit before they visit them. That way I don’t have to give directions for “Kelly’s book”, “Jim and sons Distillery”, “Cannoli Station”, or where to get the bus for “DON-ee-gal”.\* > > \*Better known as: > The Book of Kells > Jameson’s Distillery (jame-son’s) > Connolly Station (CONN-oh-lee) > and Donegal (dun-ee-GAUL) Ah thankyou for providing the correct spelling - i tried it a few times but it never looked right so i had to resort to phonetics 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-in-their-native-language-pretentious/325277/43 "2005-10-09T15:07:18Z")
Pretentious? _Moi_? I lived in Europe for many years and became accustomed to using the local pronunciations as a matter of convenience. I had to learn them in order to get to where I was going. Standing in the Frankfurt airport and looking on the boards for my flight to Vienna for the first time was extremely frustrating. After finally going to a ticket counter, I learned that the German name is “Wien” (as in wienerschnitzel). After returning to the states (after 12 years overseas), I had to consciously stop myself from using Euro pronunciations precisely because people thought I was being pretentious. ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-in-their-native-language-pretentious/325277/44 "2005-10-09T16:14:16Z")
> [@Cerowyn](#): > > There’s nothing wrong with having Anglicized versions of foreign names. And perhaps it can even be a good thing; many Japanese find the English-style three-syllable pronunciation for _Tokyo_ pretty amusing and/or cute, for instance. 😕 Three syllables? I always thought Tokyo was two syllables. ---
**Author:** ![TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tellmei_mnotcrazy/32/3419_2.png) [@TellMeI\_mNotCrazy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TellMeI_mNotCrazy)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-in-their-native-language-pretentious/325277/45 "2005-10-09T16:23:22Z")
> [@zweisamkeit](#): > > 😕 Three syllables? I always thought Tokyo was two syllables. I guess I pronounce it with 3 syllables: Toh-key-oh. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-in-their-native-language-pretentious/325277/46 "2005-10-09T17:24:58Z")
> [@Bambi Hassenpfeffer](#): > > I do hate it when the news lady changes it up though – there’s one on NPR who does it and it’s very distracting (“Blah blah midwest accent blah this has been meeDAHNda bedaCRUZ de la OHya cardiNAL…”) I gather it’s a point of pride in Latino culture (at least) to keep the names accented. Among NPR people who do this are Claudio Sanchez and Frank Contreras (and ex-NPRer María Hinojosa, now with CNN). Their deliveries are otherwise American-inflected. It’s especially unsettling with Frank, who does not style himself Franco or Francisco, just Frank. Or hear any of them reporting about a place like Los Angeles or San Antonio, which they pronounce as American place names – then give their own names. My rule with _place_ names is, if we’ve got a name – _or a widely accepted pronunciation_ – for the place in our own language, use that. In English there’s no need to say mahdhREEdh for muhDRID, HOMboorg for HAMberg, or OOtccchrecchhht for YOUtrekt, as long as everybody knows where you’re talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Beware\_of\_Doug](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/278dde/32.png) [@Beware\_of\_Doug](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beware_of_Doug)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-in-their-native-language-pretentious/325277/47 "2005-10-09T17:27:24Z")
> [@Beware of Doug](#): > > […]as long as everybody knows where you’re talking about. Madrid; Hamburg; Utrecht :smack: ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 6:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-in-their-native-language-pretentious/325277/48 "2005-10-09T18:11:33Z")
> [@Bambi Hassenpfeffer](#): > > there’s one on NPR who does it and it’s very distracting (“Blah blah midwest accent blah this has been meeDAHNda bedaCRUZ de la OHya cardiNAL…”) Did you hear the story on NPR recently about a city in Mexico that has been suffering from constant gang wars? The reporter spoke the name of the city with such a thick and rapid Spanish accent that I couldn’t understand what the hell she was saying. I listened very carefully and never figured out what the name of the city was at all. And while I am in no way fluent in Spanish, I did study it for six years, so if someone’s speaking _normally_, I can usually understand a freaking city name at the very least. ---
**Author:** ![zweisamkeit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zweisamkeit/32/4360_2.png) [@zweisamkeit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zweisamkeit)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-in-their-native-language-pretentious/325277/49 "2005-10-09T19:26:58Z")
> [@TellMeI'mNotCrazy](#): > > I guess I pronounce it with 3 syllables: Toh-key-oh. Ahh. I guess I can see that. I say Toh-kyo (damn me for not knowing IPA for proper pronunciation explanation!). ---
**Author:** ![Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bambi_Hassenpfeffer)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-in-their-native-language-pretentious/325277/50 "2005-10-09T20:47:09Z")
> [@Kyla](#): > > Did you hear the story on NPR recently about a city in Mexico that has been suffering from constant gang wars? The reporter spoke the name of the city with such a thick and rapid Spanish accent that I couldn’t understand what the hell she was saying. I listened very carefully and never figured out what the name of the city was at all. And while I am in no way fluent in Spanish, I did study it for six years, so if someone’s speaking _normally_, I can usually understand a freaking city name at the very least. [This one?](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4857114&ft=1&f=1004) No, I couldn’t understand it either until I saw it in print. There’s no excuse to say “Nuevo Laredo” the way she does, as she is a journalist trying to impart information. If she feels so strongly that it should be pronounced as it is in Spanish, she could at least slow it down, because she’s saying it way too fast – faster even than the names of other places and people. It’s ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 9:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-in-their-native-language-pretentious/325277/51 "2005-10-09T21:05:00Z")
> [@Bambi Hassenpfeffer](#): > > [This one?](http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4857114&ft=1&f=1004) No, I couldn’t understand it either until I saw it in print. There’s no excuse to say “Nuevo Laredo” the way she does, as she is a journalist trying to impart information. THANK YOU for finding that! It’s seriously been bugging me ever since I heard the story. I’m honest to god going to write NPR an email about this. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [October 9, 2005, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-in-their-native-language-pretentious/325277/52 "2005-10-09T21:17:54Z")
> [@csharpmajor](#): > > Yeah, I think it’s kinda stupid. Yeah, you went to Paris. But you don’t know French and you’re in an English-speaking country. Pronounce the fracking S. Um, I do sometimes say _\<\\> à la Français_, when speaking to someone who has a little familiarity with French, to be clear that I speak not of Paris, Texas, the guy from the Iliad, or some guy named Parriss. Said properly, _\<\\>_ is pretty unmistakable. Besides, it gives me a chance to practice that bizarre back _r._ ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 6:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-in-their-native-language-pretentious/325277/53 "2005-10-10T06:55:25Z")
According to some of you I should be ordering “pie-co dee gallow” in Mexican restaurants here in the US and my friend with the Spanish surname who knows not a word of Spanish should probably change her last name to something English (chestnuts, I think it would be) instead of expecting people to know how an N with a tilde is pronounced. As an aside: Some books I’ve written have been translated into other languages. They translated the names, too–not the name of Denver (I don’t think, anyway), but the names of the characters and the names of people in the acknowledgments–my kids, for instance. But they did not change MY name. Why was that, I wonder? I think we should make every attempt to call the city by the name it’s known to its denizens. Granted, we are going to have a hard time getting our American tongues around the names of cities in certain countries (Wales? China for sure, Russia) but currently, a lot of us don’t even know those cities go by other names. In Germany I had no trouble buying train tickets to places not commonly referenced in America (Bad Kreuznach, Schwabisch-Gmund) but Florence was actually a challenge–which it wouldn’t have been had I known that the Italians call it Firenze, the Germans call it–something else, I forget. (I think “Firenze” would have worked; “Florence” didn’t. Although what the heck, eventually I got there.) I don’t think it’s any more pretentious to call something by its proper name than it is to know things that other people may or may not know, although sure, it can be done in a superior and pretentious way. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-in-their-native-language-pretentious/325277/54 "2005-10-10T07:28:04Z")
Pretentious? A lot of it is just trying to hold on to that holidayfeel a bit longer. When I was a kid, my dad would say “Pass me the beurre, s’il te plait” for \*weeks \* after our family had returned from camping in France. He wasn’t showing off. The phrase just brought him back to those lazy croissant-filled mornings on the lawn, so he liked to use it as often as he could. It always wore off after a week or three. ---
**Author:** ![Maastricht](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a88e57/32.png) [@Maastricht](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Maastricht)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-in-their-native-language-pretentious/325277/55 "2005-10-10T07:34:23Z")
Besides, it might sound more pretentious in the USA then over here in Europe. The problem of “how is thsi city called on the map” is very real here. Countries are small here. In a fifty-mile radius from where I live, no less then three different languages are spoken, so it is vitqal to learn the names of cities in other languages. The city of Liege, for instance, is called Liege by its French inhabitants, Luik by the Flemisch and Dutch speakers, and Luttich by the Germans. Same for Colonge/Keulen/Koln and Aken/Aachen. ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 7:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-in-their-native-language-pretentious/325277/56 "2005-10-10T07:49:23Z")
Dejeuner: The breakfast of an American who has been to Paris. Variously pronounced. - The Devil’s Dictionary Being a translator and a Quebecer who’s travelling in Spain, this is a matter of some interest to me. Basically, I try to go by whatever the prevailing English-language usage is, except sometimes. There isn’t one blanket rule. For example, in general, smaller places get a native-ish pronunciation (gehr-NEE-ka, not gurr-nika, for Gernika - btw, I’m using the Basque spelling as it’s an important place in Basque culture, and also because it neatly distinguishes it from the painting; in fact a mural of _Guernica_ there called the “_Guernica Gernikako_”). Larger places, it depends. In a lot of places, the name is spelt the same, diacritics aside, and it’s pretty uncontroversial to pronounce it Englishly: Madrid, Barcelona, Valencia, Granada, Montreal, Paris, and so forth. In other places, there was a historical English name that’s now all but taken over by the native name: Córdoba, Zaragoza, Vizcaya (or Bizkaia), and such. This could be recent, such as Beijing, which seemed to complete its transmogrification at around the time of the Tiananmen Square massacre; now “Beijing” is pretty much uncontroversial and I haven’t seen anyone write “Peking” in anything but historical references in the last fifteen years. In other places, the native name is coming up fast: Mumbai, for example, or Côte d’Ivoire. Still other places are a bit further behind: I doubt many people in the English-speaking world (apart from India) have heard of Kolkata or the like. Finally, there’s the case where there’s a consistently used, different, English-language name: Lisbon, for example, or Rome. There’s just no point in saying “Roma” or “Lisboa” in English besides appearing to be a snot (or the editor of an edgy travel guide). It’s not controversial and everyone says it, just like for names of countries (it’s Greece, not the Elliniki Thimokratia). The important thing is to keep abreast of usage. Who knows? Maybe in forty years we’ll all be saying Lisboa. But I doubt it. Of course, the stupidest thing of all is to try to pronounce an English name natively: saying mü-nihhh for Munich, for example. A side note: in writing about Quebec place names, especially smaller features such as streets, I follow the official rule that the French is used in both languages: so I write my address as being on rue Saint-Quelqu’un, not Saint Quelqu’un Street, even if the latter is what I would say out loud. In way too many cases the English name is just confusing, for example when **Hamish** , recently arrived in Montreal, was directed to an address on “Pine Avenue” and wandered around for hours before he realized he ought to be looking for av. des Pins. And Og help you if someone told you to go to “Dorchester Boulevard”. ---
**Author:** ![ShibbOleth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/848f3c/32.png) [@ShibbOleth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShibbOleth)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-in-their-native-language-pretentious/325277/57 "2005-10-10T11:48:52Z")
Ok, for those of you on either side in the discussion, what’s your feel for place names that are borrowed from the original and then heinously mispronounced by the locals who adopted them. The examples I’m think of is Versailles, which is usually pronounced by Americans approximately correctly, as in “The Treaty of Versailles”, but is said as “Vur-Sales” by the people in Indiana? Ditto Lima, Peru and Lima, Ohio which are not said alike. Is it proper to pronounce both as the locals would? ---
**Author:** ![FlyingRamenMonster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@FlyingRamenMonster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlyingRamenMonster)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-in-their-native-language-pretentious/325277/58 "2005-10-10T14:49:49Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > Ok, for those of you on either side in the discussion, what’s your feel for place names that are borrowed from the original and then heinously mispronounced by the locals who adopted them. The examples I’m think of is Versailles, which is usually pronounced by Americans approximately correctly, as in “The Treaty of Versailles”, but is said as “Vur-Sales” by the people in Indiana? Ditto Lima, Peru and Lima, Ohio which are not said alike. Is it proper to pronounce both as the locals would? I wouldn’t be bothered in they didn’t. I say “Ver-sigh” personally, and don’t bother going all the way unless I’m talking about it in French class or something. Versailles in French is still Versailles in English so people should make an effort to pronounce it the original way, but if the convention in Indiana happens to be “Vur-sales” then that’s what I’d say if I were over there. ---
**Author:** ![Cletus\_Hornblower](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f6c823/32.png) [@Cletus\_Hornblower](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cletus_Hornblower)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-in-their-native-language-pretentious/325277/59 "2005-10-10T15:31:03Z")
> [@ShibbOleth](#): > > Ok, for those of you on either side in the discussion, what’s your feel for place names that are borrowed from the original and then heinously mispronounced by the locals who adopted them. The examples I’m think of is Versailles, which is usually pronounced by Americans approximately correctly, as in “The Treaty of Versailles”, but is said as “Vur-Sales” by the people in Indiana? Ditto Lima, Peru and Lima, Ohio which are not said alike. Is it proper to pronounce both as the locals would? I have been told that the citizens of Des Plaines, Illinois had used the correct pronnciation fo hundreds of years; only changing to Dess Playnes in the late 1970’s. The fear was that every time they said the correct city name people would believe they were announcing guests arriving to the island. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 10, 2005, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-in-their-native-language-pretentious/325277/60 "2005-10-10T16:09:08Z")
> [@TheLorax](#): > > I’m sure the people saying Pah-ree wouldn’t say New Yawk or North Carolahna. Neither do the Tarheels of my acquaintance. My landlady, born and raised in Franklin County (on the coastal plain, five miles from the Fall Line), says North Carolina, with a slight hint of an “ah-ee” sound a bit broader than Standard American for the I vowel. A friend raised in Chapel Hill and now living in Asheboro who visited here last night said that he’s a native North Carolinan, and his I vowel differs in no way from my own Upstate New York accent. People who say “North Carolahna” probably would identify their home state as Jawjah. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-in-their-native-language-pretentious/325277.md?page=2)