# Place names with a definite article **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 3, 2022, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-with-a-definite-article/960425 "2022-03-03T18:58:57Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![mbh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a6a055/32.png) [@mbh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mbh)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-with-a-definite-article/960425/41 "2022-03-04T04:27:20Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > Texas must have quite a few also. Las Cruces. Ahem. Las Cruces is not in Texas. mbh, citizen of Noo Messko. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-with-a-definite-article/960425/42 "2022-03-04T04:28:01Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > Ahem. Las Cruces is not in Texas. Sorry. I’m weak on my geography east of the Sierras. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-with-a-definite-article/960425/43 "2022-03-04T04:36:46Z")
> [@Senegoid](#): > > And yet, in the U. S. we say “he is _at_ school” (meaning he is there at the moment) or “he is _in_ school” (meaning he is a student there). No _the_ anywhere to be seen. You can certainly say “he is in the school,” with yet another meaning, that is, somebody who is physically in the school. For example, I’m walking around in the parking lot of a school and Bob disappears, so I ask Mary, “Where’d Bob go?” “Oh, he’s in the school.” If she said “Oh, he’s at school” that would have the meaning of he’s in the school, doing something school-related, or something to that effect. But we can say “at school,” “in school,” and “in the school” with all different meanings. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 6:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-with-a-definite-article/960425/44 "2022-03-04T06:15:12Z")
And “the” before a freeway number is also a Southern Ontario (Canada) thing: the 401, the 405, the 427, the Queen Elizabeth Way… ---
**Author:** ![Atamasama](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/atamasama/32/12961_2.png) [@Atamasama](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atamasama)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 7:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-with-a-definite-article/960425/45 "2022-03-04T07:02:25Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > You can certainly say “he is in the school,” with yet another meaning, that is, somebody who is physically in the school. For example, I’m walking around in the parking lot of a school and Bob disappears, so I ask Mary, “Where’d Bob go?” “Oh, he’s in the school.” If she said “Oh, he’s at school” that would have the meaning of he’s in the school, doing something school-related, or something to that effect. But we can say “at school,” “in school,” and “in the school” with all different meanings. Exactly. It’s especially useful if someone is at a school but not attending. For example, “I’m at the school, I’m picking my kids up early.” If you say, “I’m at school,” the implication is that you are taking a class there (or engaged in some other school activity). I also think it’s odd, in the US we don’t say a person is “at university”, but we will say they are “at college” or “in college”. Why? I have no clue. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-with-a-definite-article/960425/46 "2022-03-04T13:51:29Z")
> [@mbh](#): > > Ahem. Las Cruces is not in Texas. [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/ED0vhknRXSo/hqdefault.jpg "carltonclipz") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ED0vhknRXSo&t=25) ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-with-a-definite-article/960425/47 "2022-03-04T13:52:40Z")
The Louvre in Paris? ---
**Author:** ![burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/burpo_the_wonder_mutt/32/365_2.png) [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burpo_the_wonder_mutt)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-with-a-definite-article/960425/48 "2022-03-04T13:59:15Z")
The Mall (D.C.) ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-with-a-definite-article/960425/49 "2022-03-04T14:13:58Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > You can certainly say “he is in the school,” with yet another meaning, that is, somebody who is physically in the school. If you were in the parking lot of the school, you might say “He is in the school,” but more likely I would say “He’s inside.” Much more common would be the distinction between “at school” and “at the school.” ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-with-a-definite-article/960425/50 "2022-03-04T14:14:36Z")
> [@elbows](#): > > There’s ‘The Yukon’, but for several years now they’ve been trying to make it stop and just be, ‘Yukon’. And, yes, they are a little sensitive about it. Now you know. Nope, it’s not a big deal. The government has quietly started using “The Yukon” again. > **[Back to 'the' Yukon: The big return of a 3-letter word | CBC News](https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.6136896)** > > To much of Canada, it's a three-letter article that is used without thought in every day communication. But for Yukoners, the word "the" has been at the centre of conversations for almost two decades. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-with-a-definite-article/960425/51 "2022-03-04T14:20:54Z")
I guess there was context in my head. I was thinking of my parochial school, where the parking lot is for both the school and the church. “In the school” certainly isn’t used as often as the other phrases, but it is a valid construction with its own meaning that I’ve used before. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-with-a-definite-article/960425/52 "2022-03-04T14:23:24Z")
Still consistent with the rivers thing. Has anyone mentioned some countries that seem to take a definite article (correct me if I’m wrong) but not in English: for example, “the [Iraq]”. I am not sure if [The?] Sudan commonly takes the article in English, but the official name is indeed “The Republic of the Sudan”. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 2:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-with-a-definite-article/960425/53 "2022-03-04T14:26:11Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > I guess there was context in my head. I was thinking of my parochial school, where the parking lot is for both the school and the church. “In the school” certainly isn’t used as often as the other phrases, but it is a valid construction with its own meaning that I’ve used before. Well, I didn’t say it was _invalid._ I did say it would be much more common to distinguish between: - “Where’s Billy?” “He’s at school.” That is, school is in session and Billy is attending. - “Where’s Dad?” “He’s at the school.” Dad is physically located at the school for some reason other than attending it as a student. Same distinction for other locations, such as college. But, strangely, not for “hospital” in U.S. English. We say “at the hospital” for both. We don’t say “at hospital.” Dunno why. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-with-a-definite-article/960425/54 "2022-03-04T14:28:43Z")
Perhaps “in hospital” or “in the hospital” are more common than “at hospital”? There was a corpus website to quickly search for such statistics. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-with-a-definite-article/960425/55 "2022-03-04T14:30:11Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Perhaps “in hospital” or “in the hospital” are more common than “at hospital”? In the U.S., we don’t say “in hospital” either. We say “in the hospital” for both. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-with-a-definite-article/960425/56 "2022-03-04T14:48:49Z")
As said above, “in hospital” is a non-US English construction. But I’m chiming in more to respond to the second sentence. You’re thinking of Google ngram. Here’s the results for “in school,” “at school,” “in the school,” “at the school”: > **[Google Books Ngram Viewer](https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=in%2Bschool%2C%2Bat%2Bschool%2C%2Bin%2Bthe%2Bschool%2C%2Bat%2Bthe%2Bschool&year_start=1800&year_end=2019&corpus=26&smoothing=3&direct_url=t1%3B%2Cin%20school%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cat%20school%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cin%20the%20school%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Cat%20the%20school%3B%2Cc0)** > > Google Books Ngram Viewer “In the school” turns out to be more popular than “at the school,” but, remember, this could include results like “in the school building” or “in the school parking lot,” just as “at the school” could include “at the school meeting” or “at the school fund-raiser” or whatnot. It’s interesting to see how their popularity has changed over time, too. In the mid-1800s, “in the school” was more commonly found as a sequence of three words in text than the other three. ---
**Author:** ![veryfrank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/87869e/32.png) [@veryfrank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/veryfrank)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-with-a-definite-article/960425/57 "2022-03-04T15:08:42Z")
Chiming in with my usual Welsh wonkiness…yn Gymraeg, they use the definite article in different ways than in English. Instead of going “to school” or “to chapel” you’d go “i’r ysgol” (to the school) or “i’r capel” (to the chapel). Where’s your kid? He’s “yn yr ysgol”: “in the school,” shades of difference to “at school.” As for place names, there are a handful that use the def. article. Abergavenny is “y Fenni” and Welshpool is “y Trallwng.” I know the English often skip either the definite article or designation for named objects. Like just saying “Concorde” instead of “the Concorde.” I’d personally say “Mount Snowdon” whereas I’ve only heard the English refer to the mountain as “Snowdon” but the Welsh call it “yr Wyddfa” with the definite article. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-with-a-definite-article/960425/58 "2022-03-04T15:15:42Z")
I tried [www.english-corpora.org](http://www.english-corpora.org) | ️ | in hospital | in the hospital | at hospital | at the hospital | the | | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | --- | | British | 1697 | 271 | 51 | 401 | 5973437 | | American | 1352 | 9077 | 135 | 5046 | 50067877 | (the American corpus was about 1 billion words, British was 100 million) ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-with-a-definite-article/960425/59 "2022-03-04T15:21:59Z")
So if we weighted it for the size of the corpus, it would be 1679 “in hospital” vs 135 “in hospital” in British vs American English. And I’m betting most of the American "in hospital"s are parts of longer phrases like “in hospital procedures” as that phrasing on its own is not idiomatic US English. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [March 4, 2022, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/place-names-with-a-definite-article/960425/60 "2022-03-04T15:25:33Z")
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