Places where Abortion is illegal...

Well I think current deaths in poor countries is more important than US deaths many many years ago when people had to get illegal abortions.

Would like to hear what so called pro-lifers say about the article.

SimonX, I flip-flopped because I had forgotten Beckwith’s comment about how women did not typically go to their abortionists for subsequent treatment. The fact that I forgot this point in Beckwith’s source material was a mis-recollection on my part, and not a fundamental change in stance.

The point is that physicians do have a motive for covering up illegal behavior. The problem is that prior to Roe v Wade, they would have little opportunity to do so, if the woman dies. That’s because they would not typically be the ones providing post-natal treatment if something goes wrong.

And don’t think I haven’t noticed your failure to refute any of Dr. Beckwith’s points. Can you deny that Mary Calderone herself claimed that pre-Roe abortions were overwhelmingly performed by licensed physicians? Can you deny Dr. Bernard Nathanson’s admission that NARAL lied about the number of deaths due to abortion each year?

Oh, and just to correct one of my previous links, here is a list of further articles, showing how the lie of massive back-alley abortions and deaths is nothing but a myth, and how even “legal” abortions are far from safe.

Your article is about USA figures… not very relevant to poor South America. Try again. Back alley abortions are the norm here…

At the risk of statingthe obvious (and stirring up a hornets’ nest) can I point out that at least one person dies in every abortion.
A jurisdiction that, on these grounds, does not legitimise abortion may not necessarily have good solutions to a very difficult and emotional problem. They may still have a lower abortion death rate overall.

First of all, I explicitly pointed this out myself; after all, I was explicitly responding to the question of how many deaths occurred due to illegal abortions in America.

Apparently, I need to repeat this point periodically. :rolleyes:

Second, even if back alley abortions are the norm in South America (and I would really appreciate a cite on that matter), it does not automatically follow that legalizing it will make abortion safer. So even if we grant that point, it still does not constitute a valid argument for legalizing abortion.

Well if we make it legal prices will drop and real doctors can take up the practice without facing jail time. So overall for the rich things will not change much… but for poor women things will change quite a lot. For me its more to do with fairness. If a woman wants to abort but she is poor illegality only promotes death. For well to do women its a hassle… So its easy to talk about it in prosperous USA… but quite different when its uneducated poor women.

So do you think the reduction in abortions is significant enough to justify killing/maiming mothers that attempt illegal abortions ? Are unborn babies more important than dying and suffering mothers ? Might I add almost all poor mothers.

If you think a dead fetus/baby is WORSE/JUST AS BAD than a few orphaned children, a dead or maimed woman, grieving family and taking away women’s reproductive control… its your opinion. I think I prefer the dead fetus/baby option.

So does it automatically follow that illegalizing will make abortions much more uncommon to compensate ? Criminalizing a common practice only makes it go undercover…

Small typo there. Didn’t you mean to say, “At the risk of stating my personal opinion…”?

Pure speculation, Rashak Mani. You are assuming that prices will drop if abortion is made legal. One could just as easily speculate that prices would rise, since legalization confers an increased sense of legitimacy onto this action. Or one could speculate that legalization would falsely convince people that abortions are now safer, thereby allowing physicians to charge higher rates.

First of all, I have made no such claim so far. What I have done is point out that your conclusions do not proceed from the facts at hand.

Second, nowhere did I claim that reducing abortions would justify “killing/maiming mothers that attempt illegal abortions.” Such inflammatory language and false accusations do you no credit, bub. Indeed, I’m sure that the vast majority of pro-lifers would prefer that both legal and illegal abortions were eminently safe – which, sadly, they are not.

No, they are not “more important.” However, as j_sum1 said, the mortality rate for the unborn is 100% when it comes to abortion (barring unusual cases such as that of Gianna Jensen, that is). The mortality rate for the mothers, tragic as it may be, does not even compare to the 100% death rate for the unborn.

Still you imply unborn = adult mothers in some proportion.

I think its hard for prices not to fall thou… there is no cite possible since no one has changed their laws in quite a while… but if someone doing illegal stuff isn’t charging more then one wonders why he isnt in a legal medical area. By that I mean doctors of course… illegal abortions with doctors. With “amateurs” the price is nice and cheap… and maybe deadly.

We shouldnt forget the dangers of giving birth either… it kills too.

Doesn’t everyone? The proportion I happen to use is one. The proportion some people use is zero. Others go for some number in between.
I believe I have sound, internally consistent, biologically coherent, logical and defensible reasons for choosing the proportion one. (Not that I have time at the present moment fo filly delineate my logic, procide references and citations etc. In any case, that can wait for another thread.)
The point of the OP was the concern over hundreds of dead women who sort out an abortion in a location where that was illegal. I share that concern. My point is that, if one is going to analyse the death statistics, it makes sense to include the dead children – especially true in those countries where abortion is illegal. (Presumably the grounds for not legalising abortion in those countries is that it kills children.)

I agree with that.
As abortions are illegal and unavailable under any circumstances in Ireland and Northern Ireland; the peculiar crime for women from the Irish Republic is attempting to leave the country to procure yourself an abortion.

I have never seen any figures for deaths due to illegal abortions in Ireland, but as we are close eough to Great Britain, a country where women can have a safe and legal abortion, there must be far less need for anyone to go down that route than there is in other countries where abortion is illegal.

There have been a few high profile cases where the mother was being prevented from leaving the country to get an abortion, but by and large, this law is not policed.


Similar things going in the US that avoids creating the dole. Bush is anti abortion… but feels abstinence needs to pushed more than sexual education. So your not giving kids information and still expect them to avoid pregnancy.