# Plagiarism rocks romance world! Again! **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [January 23, 2008, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagiarism-rocks-romance-world-again/434610 "2008-01-23T01:57:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Catamount](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/catamount/32/2840_2.png) [@Catamount](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Catamount)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagiarism-rocks-romance-world-again/434610/61 "2008-01-24T00:56:04Z")
[QUOTE=Ghanima] Moaning Bear stretched and yawned, “They are nocturnal hunters that require a plentiful supply of prairie dogs for prey. Though they will also eat other small mammals, birds, and insects, a single family of four Black-footed Ferrets eats about 250 prairie dogs each year and cannot survive without access to large colonies of them.” Shawneequa laid back, the sheen of love still heavy across her beasts. “Wow, you’re really getting me hot. Tell me more…” She traced his nipple with her grubby, torn fingernail. Moaning Bear whispered, “Typically a prairie dog colony 125 acres (50 ha) in size will provide a sufficiently stable prey population for one adult ferret. The ferrets are entirely dependent on the prairie dogs for their survival, and even shelter in prairie dog burrows during the day.” His breath caught, as Shawneequa pulled him atop her once more. “Take me, weasel boy…” she whispered as they made hot monkey love. Courtesy of [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-footed_Ferret) [/QUOTE] Oh baby. Tell me more about the conservation of their habitat. That gets me all hot & ready for more sweet prairie lovin’… ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagiarism-rocks-romance-world-again/434610/62 "2008-01-24T00:57:39Z")
[QUOTE=Risha] And the estimates I’ve seen are that she’s made approximately $57 million dollars from those books. [/QUOTE] I really will have to see a cite for that $57 million claim. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 1:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagiarism-rocks-romance-world-again/434610/63 "2008-01-24T01:01:11Z")
[QUOTE=friedo] Aren’t you the one who got caught trying to sell corny photoshops of someone else’s pictures on eBay? [/QUOTE] You missspelled, “Aren’t you the one who has had previous disagreements over copyright issues with Dopers.” Not that it’s relevant to this particular argument. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagiarism-rocks-romance-world-again/434610/64 "2008-01-24T01:04:34Z")
[QUOTE=ZebraShaSha] Entirely different issue. Part of the point is that they are exactly the same. Seeing these photos, removed from the advertising labels, blown up to obscene portions, is a statement on American idealism, heroism, etc. Think of it as citing an argument that advertising is overly romantic of ideals that don’t exist and go from there. Yea, art’s a weird thing. [/QUOTE] But according to the original artist, they were not blown up or otherwise used to create art (e.g. Warhol’s soup), but were simply reproduced without acknowledgement. That’s going past re-contextualization and landing in the middle of theft of intellectual property. Which is what Edwards did. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 2:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagiarism-rocks-romance-world-again/434610/65 "2008-01-24T02:13:42Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] Yes, that would be bad, as my stuff is fiction. [/QUOTE] You think there’s a moral, ethical, or legal difference between stealing non-fiction work and fictional work? Wow. Just wow. Well, she _did_ steal from plenty of fictional pieces of work, including **Laughing Boy** and **Hiawatha**. Plus, citing your work without credit on a website isn’t even in the same league as taking your work and publishing it in a book and profiting from it. Furthermore, plagiarism isn’t just about the words used. Plagiarism includes stealing words and _information_. If it was just research, she should have included the references in her acknowledgments, which is easy as pie when you’re writing a book. Your examples don’t prove anything except that she established a pattern of lifting information if not exact wording. That’s plagiarism. Can’t you see that? And $57 million is very believable. She’s written over 100 books. Romance is \*the \* biggest selling genre in publishing, and she’s one of the biggest authors. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagiarism-rocks-romance-world-again/434610/66 "2008-01-24T02:56:52Z")
[QUOTE=pepperlandgirl] And $57 million is very believable. She’s written over 100 books. Romance is \*the \* biggest selling genre in publishing, and she’s one of the biggest authors. [/QUOTE] It’s not the tiniest bit believable. She’s supposedly sold 10 million copies of her books (reported on Wikipedia and elsewhere), which are generally in paperback. Over time she may have averaged about 50 cents per book. So $5.7 million is possible. $57 million is a typo or hysteria. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 3:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagiarism-rocks-romance-world-again/434610/67 "2008-01-24T03:45:55Z")
[In his own words](http://www.rovetv.net/pr-interview.html) with highlighting by Muffin: > [@](#): > > RP [Richard Prince]: I first started “seeing” the Marlboro advertisement in 1980 while I was working at Time/Life magazine. 1980 was the first year they started using other models for the “cowboy” and not the one that had become so famous for the campaign. I thought these new models were more generic and less identifiable and could **make it seem like after the logo and copy were cropped out that the re-photographed image could be more my own. Like I could get away with telling someone I actually did it. There was very little in the image that could hook it up with its original content. For awhile I never spoke or continued to deny that the “cowboy” images were from the Marlboro campaign.** I’ve never thought about the commodification subtext in these works. It’s never been an issue for me. **These images came out every week, a different one, and it almost seemed like they were being made by me. Every week I would “claim one.** I was working with about eight magazines at Time/Life and they all had these “cowboy” images in them. It’s always been exciting to me to open up a brand new magazine. ---
**Author:** ![Risha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5fc32e/32.png) [@Risha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Risha)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagiarism-rocks-romance-world-again/434610/68 "2008-01-24T03:59:00Z")
OK, I went back and found the page where I got the 57 million dollars figure from. It was someone quoting another romance writer who had calculated 100 million books at roughly 68 cents per book, minus the agent’s cut. Assuming that Wikipedia is correct about it really being 10.25 million books, it looks like **Exapno** was right and the decimal point was miscarried. $5.7 million dollars is still a hell of a lot of money, though. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagiarism-rocks-romance-world-again/434610/69 "2008-01-24T04:05:58Z")
Oh, I won’t deny that most people would love $5.7 million. However, Edwards has been writing for 25 years, so that averages out at $228,000 per year. Nice money, more than most writers make, but hardly wealth in this day and age. ---
**Author:** ![ZebraShaSha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/eada6e/32.png) [@ZebraShaSha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZebraShaSha)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagiarism-rocks-romance-world-again/434610/70 "2008-01-24T04:09:14Z")
[QUOTE=Muffin] [In his own words](http://www.rovetv.net/pr-interview.html) with highlighting by Muffin: [/QUOTE] Mea culpa. I remember studying that in the past, but forgot some major details. Turns out he’s another creepy post-post-post Modern wacko. Carry on. ---
**Author:** ![Risha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5fc32e/32.png) [@Risha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Risha)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagiarism-rocks-romance-world-again/434610/71 "2008-01-24T04:15:45Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] Oh, I won’t deny that most people would love $5.7 million. However, Edwards has been writing for 25 years, so that averages out at $228,000 per year. Nice money, more than most writers make, but hardly wealth in this day and age. [/QUOTE] Of course, it’s still no more ethical to plagiarize yourself to $5 million dollars than $50 million dollars. True? ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagiarism-rocks-romance-world-again/434610/72 "2008-01-24T04:40:08Z")
[QUOTE=Miss Purl McKnittington] I was just talking about the tendency of 19th-century men in positions of power to have very impressive facial hair… [/QUOTE] Sir Arthur Conan Doyle’s moustache was so assertive it had its own literary agent: [File:Conan doyle.jpg - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Conan_doyle.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagiarism-rocks-romance-world-again/434610/73 "2008-01-24T04:47:40Z")
[QUOTE=Risha] Of course, it’s still no more ethical to plagiarize yourself to $5 million dollars than $50 million dollars. True? [/QUOTE] It’s not ethical to plagiarize $5. I was commenting strictly on your “$5.7 million dollars is still a hell of a lot of money, though.” Not on how it was earned. I’m the anti-Evil Captor when it comes to plagiarism. ---
**Author:** ![Risha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5fc32e/32.png) [@Risha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Risha)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagiarism-rocks-romance-world-again/434610/74 "2008-01-24T04:52:48Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] It’s not ethical to plagiarize $5. I was commenting strictly on your “$5.7 million dollars is still a hell of a lot of money, though.” Not on how it was earned. I’m the anti-Evil Captor when it comes to plagiarism. [/QUOTE] Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply anything. I just felt like I had left the conversation hanging, and it’s late so I phrased my response badly. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagiarism-rocks-romance-world-again/434610/75 "2008-01-24T10:35:47Z")
[QUOTE=carnivorousplant] I’ll get you for this. [/QUOTE] Sorry, I guess my little “joke” was out of place in this thread. But I _did_ warn you! ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 10:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagiarism-rocks-romance-world-again/434610/76 "2008-01-24T10:38:24Z")
[QUOTE=Miss Purl McKnittington] I never thought anyone would take the phrase “assertive moustache” to mean anything similar to Dirty Sanchez. Mr. Winkelreid, I’m not sure whether I should salute you or stare at you queasily. [/QUOTE] A queasy stare is appropriate. I don’t know what came over me. It must be a train of thought that was sparked when I saw that the comic summary by Gennita Low (your link somewhere on the first page) mentioned the goatse picture ( **don’t google that one either** ) - another thing I would have been happily ignorant of if I wasn’t a poster here. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagiarism-rocks-romance-world-again/434610/77 "2008-01-24T10:47:39Z")
[QUOTE=Ghanima] Moaning Bear stretched and yawned, “They are nocturnal hunters that require a plentiful supply of prairie dogs for prey. Though they will also eat other small mammals, birds, and insects, a single family of four Black-footed Ferrets eats about 250 prairie dogs each year and cannot survive without access to large colonies of them.” Shawneequa laid back, the sheen of love still heavy across her beasts. “Wow, you’re really getting me hot. Tell me more…” She traced his nipple with her grubby, torn fingernail. Moaning Bear whispered, “Typically a prairie dog colony 125 acres (50 ha) in size will provide a sufficiently stable prey population for one adult ferret. The ferrets are entirely dependent on the prairie dogs for their survival, and even shelter in prairie dog burrows during the day.” His breath caught, as Shawneequa pulled him atop her once more. “Take me, weasel boy…” she whispered as they made hot monkey love. Courtesy of [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black-footed_Ferret) [/QUOTE] So, who do we make the check for $5.7 million out to? ---
**Author:** ![Nava](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/da6949/32.png) [@Nava](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nava)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 11:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagiarism-rocks-romance-world-again/434610/78 "2008-01-24T11:26:00Z")
[QUOTE=Evil Captor] How were the people hurt? What harm was done to them? I do think Cassie should have had a huge list of references and should have worked harder at rewording the stuff in her manuscript, it only for the sake of good writing. Frankly, I wouldn’t want to read her books, they sound like one of those droning monologues you might here in a college classroom. [/QUOTE] If someone copies something from a work of mine and says it’s mine, those who read it and think “hey, that’s good!” may then go and look for my stuff. But if it doesn’t say “borrowed from Nava”, then the reader will never think of looking for the book from which it was taken. So it would hurt me by not giving me due publicity. ---
**Author:** ![Martini\_Enfield](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/martini_enfield/32/11123_2.png) [@Martini\_Enfield](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martini_Enfield)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagiarism-rocks-romance-world-again/434610/79 "2008-01-24T12:23:15Z")
[QUOTE=Exapno Mapcase] Oh, I won’t deny that most people would love $5.7 million. However, Edwards has been writing for 25 years, so that averages out at $228,000 per year. Nice money, more than most writers make, but hardly wealth in this day and age. [/QUOTE] Perhaps your definition of “Wealth” differs from mine, but I $228,000 per year (Australian or US dollars, either is fine) would be more than enough to keep me & my wife-to-be in a nice house, with nice cars, take expensive overseas luxury holidays every year, pay all the bills, have a vintage armaments collection that rivals the Imperial War Museum, and maybe even get some Monkey Butlers too. In short, I’d be very happy with that sort of money, and would consider anyone who has that sort of income to indeed be wealthy. YRMV, of course. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [January 24, 2008, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagiarism-rocks-romance-world-again/434610/80 "2008-01-24T14:56:44Z")
[QUOTE=Martini Enfield] …and maybe even get some Monkey Butlers too. [/QUOTE] The Smart Set all have Ferret Butlers nowadays, darling. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagiarism-rocks-romance-world-again/434610.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagiarism-rocks-romance-world-again/434610.md?page=5)