# Plagues Are Sometimes 'Good'. **URL:** \ **Category:** The Quarantine Zone\ **Tags:** covid-quarantine\ **Created:** [March 28, 2020, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagues-are-sometimes-good/850492 "2020-03-28T04:22:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Jim\_B](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jim_b/32/4338_2.png) [@Jim\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_B)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 4:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagues-are-sometimes-good/850492/1 "2020-03-28T04:22:23Z")
Again, I saw it on satellite TV, so I have not cite. But the Bubonic Plague may have actually been a good thing. Specifically it led to the democratic revolutions of the late 18th centuries. At least indirectly. The story goes, with all the aristocracy held up in the private castles, to avoid the plague, they were powerless to fight the revolutions. I find it hard to believe myself. But I am not the one who said it, remember. So what do you all think? Could _ **any** _ good come from the Coronavirus? Give it some thought before you answer. :):):):):):)🙂 ---
**Author:** ![dtilque](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d6d6ee/32.png) [@dtilque](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dtilque)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagues-are-sometimes-good/850492/2 "2020-03-28T06:33:58Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > Again, I saw it on satellite TV, so I have not cite. > > But the Bubonic Plague may have actually been a good thing. Specifically it led to the democratic revolutions of the late 18th centuries. At least indirectly. > > The story goes, with all the aristocracy held up in the private castles, to avoid the plague, they were powerless to fight the revolutions. > > I find it hard to believe myself. But I am not the one who said it, remember. It’s good you find it hard to believe, because it’s likely nonsense. As far as I can tell, there was no outbreak of the plague in France during their revolution. Which is where the main democratic revolution occured in the 18th century.[1] The French Revolution was copied in some other countries, but I couldn’t find reports of plague in them either. [1] OK, the American War of Independence occured in that century, but there was essentially no aristocracy in the American colonies. Also no plague. ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_B](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jim_b/32/4338_2.png) [@Jim\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_B)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 6:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagues-are-sometimes-good/850492/3 "2020-03-28T06:58:20Z")
> [@dtilque](#): > > It’s good you find it hard to believe, because it’s likely nonsense. As far as I can tell, there was no outbreak of the plague in France during their revolution. Which is where the main democratic revolution occured in the 18th century.[1] The French Revolution was copied in some other countries, but I couldn’t find reports of plague in them either. > [1] OK, the American War of Independence occured in that century, but there was essentially no aristocracy in the American colonies. Also no plague. You’re probably right. FWIW though, I think they said it was a long, drawn-out process, that _began_ with the Black Death. As I said, I am truly sorry I have no cite. Anyone else know what I am referring to? 🙂 EDIT: BTW I get a lot of my information from satellite. Don’t laugh. I probably I am not alone in this (including people on these boards, whether they admit to it or not;)). ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagues-are-sometimes-good/850492/4 "2020-03-28T07:06:55Z")
I have read that the Black Death played an important part in the spread of the printing press. [Here is one example](https://www.smore.com/cjbwp-the-printing-press), and I’ve read similar elsewhere. An excerpt from the link: \*\*These deaths made the lower class richer as they inherited the property of the dead; as a result, many were able to move up economically, and so more people could afford to buy books. Members of the lower class were also able to participate in the industry by selling rags from their clothing, which were used to make paper. (Before the printing press, only parchment and vellum were used, which was inefficient – 170 calfskins and 300 sheepskins were needed to copy the Bible once. All of these skins had to be scraped clean and thin.) ## Furthermore, the Black Plague weakened the power of the Church. It killed off the monks who were trained to copy religious texts; after the monks died and many texts were destroyed during the fall of the Church, there was a strong incentive for a cheaper print method. Finally, the spread of secularism … also resulted when the Church fell.\*\* So you could say it led to the Renaissance and the Age of Enlightenment and eventually the democratic revolutions of the 18th century. I don’t think it’s nonsense at all. As for the coronavirus, I have for several years now felt tourism has run out of control and that some sort of correction was needed and bound to happen eventually. This may be it, although I always envisioned it as something more like another world war. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagues-are-sometimes-good/850492/5 "2020-03-28T07:11:07Z")
“I and my family may be dying in the most horrible way you can possibly imagine…but the advancements this will bring about makes it all worth it” said no one. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 7:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagues-are-sometimes-good/850492/6 "2020-03-28T07:12:29Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > “I and my family may be dying in the most horrible way you can possibly imagine…but the advancements this will bring about makes it all worth it” said no one. Well, no, they wouldn’t say it. But they’d have no clue about it, would they now? ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 7:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagues-are-sometimes-good/850492/7 "2020-03-28T07:14:47Z")
The nearest (serious) claim I have heard made by actual historians (no cite, just going off the top of my head) is that the plague helped to weaken the feudal system and its limitations on the freedom of movement of the lower classes (serfs and such) as the labor of those who survived was in relatively (per person) greater demand after the catastrophic loss of such a large portion of the population. It made room for opportunities towards social mobility. That’s a long way off from sparking revolutionary movements centuries later, though. ETA: scooped ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 7:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagues-are-sometimes-good/850492/8 "2020-03-28T07:17:31Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > The nearest (serious) claim I have heard made by actual historians (no cite, just going off the top of my head) is that the plague helped to weaken the feudal system and its limitations on the freedom of movement of the lower classes (serfs and such) as the labor of those who survived was in relatively (per person) greater demand after the catastrophic loss of such a large portion of the population. It made room for opportunities towards social mobility. > > That’s a long way off from sparking revolutionary movements centuries later, though. It was a beginning, was where it started. These things take awhile. They especially took awhile back then. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 8:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagues-are-sometimes-good/850492/9 "2020-03-28T08:23:02Z")
The Black Death led to the breakdown of serfdom and the manorial system, because there was a huge demand for workers. That gave them bargaining power and better conditions. From _Medieval Europe_ (2016) by Chris Wickham: > [@](#): > > This is where the Black Death had its most substantial effects. In villages, there was breathing space again, and peasants both had more land at their disposal and could potentially negotiate better terms with landlords. The post-1350 period was, for example, the moment at which serfdom finally disappeared from western Europe, and, in the western kingdoms, in general landlords did less well than peasantries. > > This did not come without a struggle – as we shall see in the next chapter, this was a period with some notable rural revolts – and in some areas of Europe, in particular east of the Elbe, lords won, resulting in the new subjection of previously freer peasants: this subjection indeed helped the development of Poland as a region of major grain production for export. But in the west agricultural specialisations appeared (dairy farming, market gardening, hops), peasant diet improved (in England and Germany it included more meat, for example), and also, importantly, so did peasant buying power for artisanal goods. > > In an earlier period, this would not have helped much, for economic complexity had largely been based on the demand of lords, not peasants; but now that capillary local commerce had been established it could continue with a peasant market as well, and did. Furthermore, peasant family members in the Low Countries, England, and parts of northern Italy, increasingly worked for others for salaries, for at least part of their lives, a fact which in itself presupposes an increased level of commercialisation. > > The next stage in parts of the Low Countries and eastern England would be the rise of peasant élites and middlemen, yeomen, whose accumulated estates were increasingly worked with a salaried labour force, resulting in a substantial change in the basic structures of production. And salaried workers everywhere – particularly in towns, where working for money was overwhelmingly the norm – were able to use their scarcity for 150 years after the plagues to negotiate higher wages, notwithstanding the labour regulations which most rulers enacted as soon as they could after the Black Death (in England, already in 1349) to try to hold down wage levels. > > Workers and employers fought over this with some commitment in the next century and more, with urban revolts even commoner than those in the countryside. But mass buying-power increased here too, feeding off and feeding into the commercialisation of the period. ---
**Author:** ![Francis\_Vaughan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/francis_vaughan/32/3093_2.png) [@Francis\_Vaughan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francis_Vaughan)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 8:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagues-are-sometimes-good/850492/10 "2020-03-28T08:38:39Z")
As the saying goes - with chaos comes opportunity. It depends upon who is better placed to take advantage of it. Speaking as a mammal, I tend to think fondly of large meteor strikes. ---
**Author:** ![paulmarkj](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/9e8a1a/32.png) [@paulmarkj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paulmarkj)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagues-are-sometimes-good/850492/11 "2020-03-28T12:56:41Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > Again, I saw it on satellite TV, so I have not cite. > > But the Bubonic Plague may have actually been a good thing. Specifically it led to the democratic revolutions of the late 18th centuries. At least indirectly. I was taught about that at school, but not for the reasons you say. Like GreenWyvern, it was because of the bargaining power of the peasants. Though I never understood how this could work: peasants movements were limited and the had to work where they were tied to. I really must get a good book on this! ---
**Author:** ![asahi](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asahi/32/8693_2.png) [@asahi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asahi)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagues-are-sometimes-good/850492/12 "2020-03-28T13:05:14Z")
The Black Death was so extensive and killed so many people across all classes, including the Barony, that it essentially broke the feudal system (GreenWyvern beat me to it). ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagues-are-sometimes-good/850492/13 "2020-03-28T13:10:29Z")
> [@paulmarkj](#): > > I was taught about that at school, but not for the reasons you say. Like GreenWyvern, it was because of the bargaining power of the peasants. Though I never understood how this could work: peasants movements were limited and the had to work where they were tied to. > > I really must get a good book on this! The Black Plague killed so many people across all social and economic strata that it opened up opportunity for social and economic advancement that hadnt been there for millennia. Also, it drove many peasants into the cities. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_Bravo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_bravo/32/493_2.png) [@Johnny\_Bravo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_Bravo)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagues-are-sometimes-good/850492/14 "2020-03-28T13:16:44Z")
You can definitely draw a line between the Black Death and the revolutions of the 18th century, but you can draw a line between the Black Death and literally anything important that happened in Europe thereafter. That is how profoundly and extensively it shattered society. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagues-are-sometimes-good/850492/15 "2020-03-28T13:18:10Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > So what do you all think? Could _ **any** _ good come from the Coronavirus? Give it some thought before you answer. I can foresee the creation of a (probably national) organization, maybe a sub-department of Home Security, with a purpose of rapid response to unknown threats and a large amount of power to accomplish it. Whether that works over time, I don’t know, but politicians will be under constant pressure to “do something,” and what they do best is increase the scope of government and raise taxes to pay for it. So maybe that’s not a good thing after all. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 1:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagues-are-sometimes-good/850492/16 "2020-03-28T13:21:20Z")
Yeah, everything in history affects everything else. Any event that came after any other event, good or bad, can be partly attributed to that event. ---
**Author:** ![dorvann](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/df705f/32.png) [@dorvann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dorvann)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 1:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagues-are-sometimes-good/850492/17 "2020-03-28T13:23:43Z")
> [@Johnny\_Bravo](#): > > You can definitely draw a line between the Black Death and the revolutions of the 18th century, but you can draw a line between the Black Death and literally anything important that happened in Europe thereafter. That is how profoundly and extensively it shattered society. There is also a pretty direct line between The Black Death and The Protestant Reformation. ---
**Author:** ![Triskadecamus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b19c9b/32.png) [@Triskadecamus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Triskadecamus)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagues-are-sometimes-good/850492/18 "2020-03-28T13:51:08Z")
The loss of population among the “upper class” may have unlocked a lot of capital, but it didn’t empower the “lower classes.” However the cost of labor went up, because labor was much harder to find. A middle class became a reality. The cost of military skyrocketed, and purchase of labor was economically more desirable than enforcing slave/serf systems. The money spent on labor was lost to the upper class, and its size was much smaller in comparison to the combined middle and lower classes despising surviving in greater percentages. Still a small percentage, but the driving force of the rise of capitalism. Untitled sons, and daughters had wealth, but not titles, or estates. Egalitarianism wasn’t so much a philosophy, as a defacto change in the state of affairs. Skilled workers commanded higher wages, and the untitled rich sold land, which had not happened before. Of course by 1500 capital investment in shipping created the ability to find a new underclass, indigenous populations in discovered nations, having no military alliances equal to the combined political might of Church and State in Europe. ---
**Author:** ![Musicat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/musicat/32/20189_2.png) [@Musicat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Musicat)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagues-are-sometimes-good/850492/19 "2020-03-28T13:56:02Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Yeah, everything in history affects everything else. Any event that came after any other event, good or bad, can be partly attributed to that event. Like the 20th Century was a direct result of the 19th. ---
**Author:** ![GreenWyvern](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/greenwyvern/32/2834_2.png) [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2020, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagues-are-sometimes-good/850492/20 "2020-03-28T13:56:06Z")
> [@paulmarkj](#): > > I really must get a good book on this! The book I quoted from, [_Medieval Europe_](https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01LZ01AC8/) by Chris Wickham, is an excellent general history. Chris Wickham is a Professor of Medieval History at Oxford University, so it’s authoritative, and it incorporates the latest scholarship. It’s not pop-history, so it’s not light reading, but you won’t easily find a better overview. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plagues-are-sometimes-good/850492.md?page=2)