# Plane crash in Arizona **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [November 24, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-arizona/603993 "2011-11-24T18:49:37Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-arizona/603993/1 "2011-11-24T18:49:37Z")
‘Aviation in itself is not inherently dangerous. But to an even greater degree than the sea, it is terribly unforgiving of any carelessness, incapacity or neglect.’ – R. E. G. Davis [6 dead after plane slams into Arizona mountains](http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2011/11/24/8990570-6-dead-after-plane-slams-into-arizona-mountains) The crash was captured on a [surveillance camera](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fzl0eKnXoi0). Two aircraft, one low and one high, are seen flying from screen-left. The lower aircraft disappears behind terrain at about 0:47, and then there is a fireball as it collides with same. The dead include the pilot and his three children, who were going home for Thanksgiving. ---
**Author:** ![campp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@campp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/campp)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-arizona/603993/2 "2011-11-24T19:58:20Z")
Sad. That cliff it hit is a HUGE hunk of rock, mostly verticle. I’ve been to the top, and it is seriously rugged. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 24, 2011, 9:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-arizona/603993/3 "2011-11-24T21:52:36Z")
The still photo on the first link looks like a Spielberg movie set. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2011, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-arizona/603993/4 "2011-11-25T00:32:18Z")
East of Phoenix, the site said. I’m west of Phoenix for the next few days; I wonder how far away. ---
**Author:** ![campp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@campp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/campp)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2011, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-arizona/603993/5 "2011-11-25T00:39:08Z")
Robot Arm, about 40 miles as the crow flies. ---
**Author:** ![NajaSong](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9d8465/32.png) [@NajaSong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaSong)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2011, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-arizona/603993/6 "2011-11-25T03:07:48Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > East of Phoenix, the site said. I’m west of Phoenix for the next few days; I wonder how far away. It’s in Apache Junction. If take the 60 waaaaay east, you’ll eventually see the Superstitions on your left. It’s a bad area to get stuck in the best of circumstances. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Ruby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/13edae/32.png) [@Ruby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruby)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2011, 3:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-arizona/603993/7 "2011-11-25T03:19:25Z")
That’s sad to happen any time but to happen on a holiday will be especially hard for their families. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2011, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-arizona/603993/8 "2011-11-25T05:16:57Z")
> [@campp](#): > > Robot Arm, about 40 miles as the crow flies. I’m staying with family in Buckeye for the next few days. Too late to organize a Dopefest? ---
**Author:** ![Mauvaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mauvaise/32/11084_2.png) [@Mauvaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mauvaise)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 3:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-arizona/603993/9 "2011-11-26T03:01:04Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > I’m staying with family in Buckeye for the next few days. Too late to organize a Dopefest? You suck! 🙂 You are supposed to announce visits prior to coming to town, not when you’re practically out the door. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-arizona/603993/10 "2011-11-26T03:05:04Z")
I don’t think my dad’s moving anytime soon. I’ll probably be back. ---
**Author:** ![Asimovian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asimovian/32/172_2.png) [@Asimovian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Asimovian)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 4:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-arizona/603993/11 "2011-11-26T04:04:33Z")
I saw this on the news today, but they hadn’t mentioned anything about the second plane in the area. I’m wondering how much of a factor that was, and how long it will be before the FAA releases any ATC transmissions, assuming there was anything relevant communicated before the incident. I can’t even begin to imagine what the mom has got to feel like right now, and I wonder if it’s worse for her since she’s a pilot. Awful situation. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-arizona/603993/12 "2011-11-26T04:45:36Z")
> [@Asimovian](#): > > I can’t even begin to imagine what the mom has got to feel like right now, and I wonder if it’s worse for her since she’s a pilot. Awful situation. A tragedy like this is always bad, but as **Ruby** said it’s so much worse on a holiday. For the rest of her life, the mother will be hearing the annual ‘So what are _your_ thankful for?’ at this time of year. Emotionally, I maintain an even strain. It’s not that I don’t care; it’s just that I don’t display my emotions. As a pilot, when I hear of someone dying in flight I might be sad, or I might be angry. Or it might just be a data point. But I can’t help thinking that the person who died was doing what he or she loved. You don’t fly unless you love it. Perhaps she can take condolence in that. But that’s bloody little when she’s lost her whole family. I started this thread with a quote. It seemed that it was applicable in this case. The pilot was experienced. He was flying an aircraft that was very capable. From the B&W video, weather did not seem to be factor. Everyone knows that if the lights ahead of you disappear, you have terrain between you and them. But in the desert there are often no lights. An experienced pilot would know the minimum safe altitudes along his route. So why did this pilot maintain controlled flight into the ground? Was he distracted by his kids and passengers? Did he somehow mis-set his altimeter? Did he make a simple math error? Or did he just flake? Going only by the article, I see no reason for this accident to have happened. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-arizona/603993/13 "2011-11-26T11:17:22Z")
A modest hijack, if I may. The other aircraft continued in its search for the teenagers. I’m surprised it didn’t immediately divert to the scene of the crash. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-arizona/603993/14 "2011-11-26T15:37:05Z")
Errata: I meant ‘solace’ in my last post; not ‘condolence’. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-arizona/603993/15 "2011-11-26T17:27:11Z")
> [@Johnny\_L.A](#): > > …Emotionally, I maintain an even strain. It’s not that I don’t care; it’s just that I don’t display my emotions. As a pilot, when I hear of someone dying in flight I might be sad, or I might be angry. Or it might just be a data point. But I can’t help thinking that the person who died was doing what he or she loved. You don’t fly unless you love it. … That’s certainly a common comment by pilots. I take a contrarian view. If on some dark & stormy night I’m surprised by a forest (or a 737) coming through the windshield, my final thoughts will be along the lines of “Damn! I really let these folks down, didn’t I. And my family at home who expects me back for dinner tomorrow. I must suck at this job.” In all I’d rather die in bed than with that thought echoing around in my neurons as they’re torn asunder. I think most professional pilots would have a similar reaction if pressed on it. And even purely recreational pilots have reason for similar thoughts. I have to think the pilot in this accident thought that way at the bitter end. Yes, there are accidents where the pilot’s last chance to save him/herself was to stay home that day. IOW, they were irretrievably screwed from the moment anything went wrong. But those are few & far between. By and large, accidents happen when bad luck(s) meets inadequate preparation or weak skill. And two of those three are the pilot’s 100% responsibility to never, ever, no matter what, come up short. Or to die trying. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2011, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-arizona/603993/16 "2011-11-26T17:57:09Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > I take a contrarian view. If on some dark & stormy night I’m surprised by a forest (or a 737) coming through the windshield, my final thoughts will be along the lines of “Damn! I really let these folks down, didn’t I. And my family at home who expects me back for dinner tomorrow. I must suck at this job.” I think most people would rather die peacefully than violently. Personally I’d hate to die in an aircraft I’m flying, and my last thoughts would most probably be ‘I suck at this!’ But I think that in such circumstances a pilot will fight to the end to save his ship. He’s _doing_ something. It just seems better to me than to be taken out by a drunken driver. (And if a pilot passes out from hypoxia, his last thoughts might just be ‘What a lovely day for flying.’) > [@LSLGuy](#): > > Yes, there are accidents where the pilot’s last chance to save him/herself was to stay home that day. IOW, they were irretrievably screwed from the moment anything went wrong. But those are few & far between. By and large, accidents happen when bad luck(s) meets inadequate preparation or weak skill. And two of those three are the pilot’s 100% responsibility to never, ever, no matter what, come up short. Or to die trying. ‘He was dead before he left the ground.’ It happens. I think of JFK Jr., who launched into conditions which he oughtn’t have at his level of experience, and who failed to recognise the situation he was in once he was in it. The Arizona crash is baffling on the face of it. Experienced pilot, a powerful aircraft, good visibility, familiarity with the area… It shouldn’t have happened. ---
**Author:** ![Ruby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/13edae/32.png) [@Ruby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruby)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2011, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-arizona/603993/17 "2011-11-27T20:53:10Z")
On a similar note, would our resident pilots care to weigh in on this one? [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=14504552#post14504552](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=14504552#post14504552) ---
**Author:** ![postcards](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/8e8cbc/32.png) [@postcards](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/postcards)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2011, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-arizona/603993/18 "2011-11-27T21:32:25Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > A modest hijack, if I may. The other aircraft continued in its search for the teenagers. I’m surprised it didn’t immediately divert to the scene of the crash. ‘The other aircraft’ wasn’t looking for any lost teenagers, at least by my comprehension of the article: > [@](#): > > A search and rescue team was in the rugged mountains searching for three missing teenagers Wednesday evening and saw the explosion as the twin-engine plane hit the cliff, Babeu said. The searchers found the teens, then went up the mountain to try to reach the crash site. Sounds to me like the S&R team was on foot. I doubt an aircraft could do much searching at night. ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2011, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-arizona/603993/19 "2011-11-27T22:04:45Z")
Am Australian news site reported this story under the headline ‘Single Mother Loses 3 Kids In Plane Crash’, and the opening paragraph of the story began “A single mother has lost her three young children and ex husband in a fiery plane crash…”. I’m unsure if they mean single as in she was the only mother to lose children in the crash, or single as in unmarried but either way it seemed a strange detail to focus on. ---
**Author:** ![moejoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@moejoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejoe)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2011, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-arizona/603993/20 "2011-11-27T22:59:14Z")
> [@Cazzle](#): > > Am Australian news site reported this story under the headline ‘Single Mother Loses 3 Kids In Plane Crash’, and the opening paragraph of the story began “A single mother has lost her three young children and ex husband in a fiery plane crash…”. I’m unsure if they mean single as in she was the only mother to lose children in the crash, or single as in unmarried but either way it seemed a strange detail to focus on. I think they were trying to make it clear that she didn’t lose her husband in the crash, but she did lose her kids and their father. It could be confusing since the kids were flying with their dad and she is their mother, especially if the writer is trying to avoid starting the piece with “divorced mother loses kids and ex-husband in plane crash”