# Plane crash in Austin, TX **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 18, 2010, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-austin-tx/529560 "2010-02-18T23:39:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Deeg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/deeg/32/2955_2.png) [@Deeg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Deeg)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-austin-tx/529560/41 "2010-02-19T19:24:24Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > That’s an important difference, though. Suicide bombers are often given training and equipment by larger groups, and I think their targets are often chosen by someone else. They might also be desperate and nuts, but they’re not acting alone. They’re usually part of an organization that has clearly defined goals. I dunno…was Richard Reid a terrorist? What muddies the water a bit is that some groups/people are lauding Stark’s actions, calling him a hero. That they think he’s striking a blow against the government, hoping that it will change things, sort of pushes him over the line into terrorism. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 19, 2010, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-austin-tx/529560/42 "2010-02-19T19:48:17Z")
> [@Deeg](#): > > I dunno…was Richard Reid a terrorist? Reid allegedly trained with Al Qaeda in Pakistan and Afghanistan, and they gave him the shoe bomb he tried to use. Granted that Al Qaeda has become more and more nebulous as the years have gone on, but I think that makes him a clear member of a terrorist group with larger goals. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-austin-tx/529560/43 "2010-02-20T05:49:44Z")
Too many posts to quote for this, but consider it a reply to much of the above: [ > [@](#): > > Bob Schulz, founder of the anti-government We the People Foundation, said that while he only advocates non-violent means of protest, he can understand Stack’s motives and said it is a reflection of a movement unlike any he’s ever seen. > > “There’s a huge patriot movement,” Schulz said. “I’ve been doing this kind of work for 30 years. Never have I seen the likes of what’s going on now. It’s delightful.” ]([Extremists in 'Patriot' Movement Calling Joe Stack a Hero - ABC News](http://abcnews.go.com/TheLaw/patriot-movement-calling-joe-stack-hero/story?id=9889443&page=1)) > [@](#): > > “He sacrificed his life to inspire the quest for TRUTH,” one Facebook poster said. “He deserves a memorial. A one man uprising… God Bless him.” > > “This was quite heroic,” said a member of [Stormfront.org](http://Stormfront.org), a white supremacist Web site. “There is a gradual awakening underway.” > > “This is just the beginning, prepare for battle!” another said. There are groups out there that are embracing, even co-opting, the man’s actions as part of their call for change. This was a terrorist act. [ > [@](#): > > And some people on Facebook couldn’t agree more. > > “Finally an American man took a stand against our tyrannical government that no longer follows the Constitution,” wrote Emily Walters of Louisville, Ky. ]([http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2010/02/19/crimesider/entry6223132.shtml](http://www.cbsnews.com/blogs/2010/02/19/crimesider/entry6223132.shtml)) > [@](#): > > “His sacrifice was for all of us,” wrote Texan Tyler Britten on Facebook, according to the paper. Facebook has removed numerous “Joe Stack Fan Club” pages since this incident. I can’t find any record of how many people signed up for them, but Emily Walters had more than 200 people sign up in just a few hours. Alex Jones, a radio host in Austin, TX has been pushing the idea that this was staged by the government. [cite](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-NYZM6lfx3I&feature=youtube_gdata) There are a lot of seriously deranged people out there, and many are embracing what the man did and seeing it as a call for a change or as confirmation of their own beliefs. [ > [@](#): > > One founder of a Stack fan club on Facebook, Rick Wagner, is a pilot in Minnesota. His “about me” quote, which one hopes is a joke, reads: > > “When I go I want to be able to look back and tell all the passengers to quit screaming.” ]([http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/02/19/2010-02-19\_kamakazi\_pilot\_hailed\_by\_loonies\_as\_antigov\_hero.html#ixzz0g3FyfwGJ](http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/2010/02/19/2010-02-19_kamakazi_pilot_hailed_by_loonies_as_antigov_hero.html#ixzz0g3FyfwGJ)) I’ll bet that was a play on the old joke, at least, I would have made that bet before this pilot supported Mr. Stack’s actions. Now I wouldn’t want to discover that this man was my pilot on any kind of flight. Heck, I wouldn’t want him to drive me to the corner store. This was an act of domestic terrorism. You don’t have to have a group backing you, lots of money, or a coherent train of thought to be a terrorist. You just have to commit a violent act seeking to bring about a change in social, political and/or economic policies. And clearly Mr. Stack was doing that, and he has inspired others to his cause, or at least given already like-minded people a martyr to rally around. ---
**Author:** ![ivan\_astikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/58f4c7/32.png) [@ivan\_astikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivan_astikov)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 8:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-austin-tx/529560/44 "2010-02-20T08:43:16Z")
> [@Eutychus](#): > > Once they organize, yes. In this case, there’s no evidence of any organizing entity behind what this guy did. A movement or organisation has to start somewhere, and this could be the rallying call. If it inspires terrorism, it is a terrorist attack. ---
**Author:** ![Raguleader](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/258eb7/32.png) [@Raguleader](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Raguleader)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-austin-tx/529560/45 "2010-02-20T15:25:47Z")
> [@Digger1914](#): > > If, like the Right says, that the guy at Ft Hood talked to/listened to/was inspired by some Muslim crazies…what if this guy was mainlining Beck, Rush, Hannity, et al. Will they admit this is terrorism just like Ft Hood was terrorism? Or somehow, will they find a way to wash their hands of the entire incident. I’m stunned that something like this hasn’t happened earlier. > **[Frank Eugene Corder](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Eugene_Corder)** > > Frank Eugene Corder (May 26, 1956 – September 12, 1994) was an American truck driver. He stole a Cessna 150 late on September 11, 1994, and crashed the stolen aircraft onto the South Lawn of the White House early on September 12, 1994, while attempting to land the plane; he was killed, and was the sole casualty. > Corder was born in Perry Point, Maryland, the son of William Eugene Corder, who was an aircraft mechanic at Edgewood Arsenal, and Dorothy Corder. He dropped out of Aberdeen High School... ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-austin-tx/529560/46 "2010-02-20T16:24:22Z")
I think there’s a reluctance to classify actions such as this as terrorism when there’s a white person involved. This type of incidents never trigger fear of white men or cause the media to ask other white people to repudiate the other white persons actions. When the Klan bombed churches that wasn’t labled terrorism for pretty much the same reasons, it also wasn’t actively investigated nor people persued for prosecution. Even the title of this thread illustrates how differently events are portrayed when white people are the culprits. Clearly after 911 where planes were flown into buildings for a terrorist effect and intentional flying of a plane into a building and a government building no less, is an act of terrorism. Just sayin… ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-austin-tx/529560/47 "2010-02-20T18:27:09Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > This just in: Did newly elected Republican Senator Scott Brown just blame America for an act of terrorism? > > [http://www.americablog.com/2010/02/scott-brown-links-guy-crashing-plain.html](http://www.americablog.com/2010/02/scott-brown-links-guy-crashing-plain.html) To hell with Scott Brown and his cheap ass posturing and political pandering and attention whoring. To hell with his attempt to justify some psycho for purely political reasons. To hell with him. ---
**Author:** ![suranyi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e36b37/32.png) [@suranyi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/suranyi)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-austin-tx/529560/48 "2010-02-20T19:24:20Z")
never mind ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-austin-tx/529560/49 "2010-02-20T19:28:18Z")
Mentally ill does not automatically mean you are not responsible for your actions, which would be the only way to absolve Stack of blame here. Certainly, not all mentally ill people crash an airplane (or any other vehicle) into a building, and Stack was rational enough to function for decades in society and rational enough to plan and successfully implement his plans. I think it’s debatable whether he was mentally ill _at all_ - my opinion is that he made a lot of very bad choices and, when finally backed into a corner because of that, decided to take some people down with him as his final act. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-austin-tx/529560/50 "2010-02-20T20:34:44Z")
> [@Eutychus](#): > > I don’t think it’s as important to know what he was, but as what the various movements are going to paint him as. Already there has been a subset of Austin Truthers coming out saying that there are too many discrepancies in the official story to be just what it seems to be on face value. Quite a few responses on various blog are claiming that this should be seen as “The Shot Heard Round the World” for the Tea Party movement. It’s getting scary out there. > > If there is a saving grace to all this, it may be that the more violent members of the movement get weeded out as the more thoughtful members start to see the effects of what they might claim is violent revolution. People should paint him for what he was - a nutcase. Then they should toss him aside. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-austin-tx/529560/51 "2010-02-20T20:54:25Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > When the Klan bombed churches that wasn’t labled terrorism for pretty much the same reasons, it also wasn’t actively investigated nor people persued for prosecution. Then again - even though some people assumed for racial reasons that the Oklahoma City bombers were Arabs - Tim McVeigh was prosecuted. And Terry Nichols was prosecuted. > [@](#): > > Even the title of this thread illustrates how differently events are portrayed when white people are the culprits. Clearly after 911 where planes were flown into buildings for a terrorist effect and intentional flying of a plane into a building and a government building no less, is an act of terrorism. Just sayin… This is facile. There are a lot of differences between this and September 11th. Both attacks used planes as a weapon, but if you’re cataloging the differences, they go a lot deeper than the skin color of the perpetrators. _As far as we know, this guy acted alone._ A few assholes may be cheering him on now, but he didn’t have any support that we are aware of. I’ll admit it’s not always easy to give a yes or no answer to the terrorism question when someone acts alone. I still lean toward ‘no’ on Nidal Hassan, but people have correctly pointed out that his religion was a factor in what he did, and religion has been the motivation for a lot of terrorist attacks. **Broomstick** , I’m not arguing that Stack was not responsible for his actions because he was mentally ill. I don’t know anything about his particular status other than feeling that you have to be crazy to do something like this. That extends to suicide bombers as well, and I probably just should have said crazy rather than ‘mentally ill,’ which suggests some kind of diagnosable problem. Anyway, what I’m arguing is that when someone gets to the end of his rope decides to kill himself and take others with him, it is not terrorism even if he says he did it for reasons related to politics or religion or some other social ill. After all, people who have this kind of break often blame society in some fashion, don’t they? ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-austin-tx/529560/52 "2010-02-20T22:49:45Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > This is facile. There are a lot of differences between this and September 11th. Both attacks used planes as a weapon, but if you’re cataloging the differences, they go a lot deeper than the skin color of the perpetrators. _As far as we know, this guy acted alone._ A few assholes may be cheering him on now, but he didn’t have any support that we are aware of. Whether the guy has support or not (we can argue what constitutes support in another thread) has nothing to do with whether or not his actions was meant to terrorize. If you intentionally fly a plane into a building what are you trying to do? Make people feel safe? Help me out here. 😃 > [@](#): > > I’ll admit it’s not always easy to give a yes or no answer to the terrorism question when someone acts alone. I still lean toward ‘no’ on Nidal Hassan, but people have correctly pointed out that his religion was a factor in what he did, and religion has been the motivation for a lot of terrorist attacks. The reason this guy crashed a plane into a building is essentially the same reason the 9/11 hijackers did, the big difference being that this guy didn’t need (based on what we’ve been told) the goverment to make up the narrative of why. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 20, 2010, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-austin-tx/529560/53 "2010-02-20T23:27:25Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > Whether the guy has support or not (we can argue what constitutes support in another thread) has nothing to do with whether or not his actions was meant to terrorize. If you intentionally fly a plane into a building what are you trying to do? Make people feel safe? Help me out here. 😃 You could say the same thing about shooting a bunch of people. But are all of those people terrorists? I think the general consensus is that some of them are and some of them aren’t. > [@](#): > > The reason this guy crashed a plane into a building is essentially the same reason the 9/11 hijackers did, the big difference being that this guy didn’t need (based on what we’ve been told) the goverment to make up the narrative of why. I’m not sure what you mean by that. This guy left his note online, Al Qaeda had their statements and declarations. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-austin-tx/529560/54 "2010-02-21T00:05:06Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > You could say the same thing about shooting a bunch of people. But are all of those people terrorists? I think the general consensus is that some of them are and some of them aren’t. Okay, so you’re not really saying anything here, that’s cool. What do we call an action that’s similiar to an action that’s been labled a terrorist attack? A copy cat action? > [@](#): > > I’m not sure what you mean by that. This guy left his note online, Al Qaeda had their statements and declarations. What statement directly related to 911 was there? Where can I view it online? ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-austin-tx/529560/55 "2010-02-21T00:17:10Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > What statement directly related to 911 was there? Where can I view it online? Well, [ > [@](#): > > Shortly before the U.S. presidential election in 2004, in a taped statement, bin Laden publicly acknowledged al-Qaeda’s involvement in the attacks on the U.S. and admitted his direct link to the attacks. He said that the attacks were carried out because “we are free…and want to regain freedom for our nation. As you undermine our security we undermine yours.”[112] Osama bin Laden says he had personally directed his followers to attack the World Trade Center[113] In the video, he says, “We had agreed with the Commander-General Muhammad Atta, Allah have mercy on him, that all the operations should be carried out within 20 minutes, before Bush and his administration notice.” ]([September 11 attacks - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks)) [ > [@](#): > > Al-Qaeda’s spokesman, Sulaiman Abu Ghaith, said in a video sent to al Jazeera and broadcast in October 2001 the following: > The Americans should know that the storm of plane attacks will not abate, with God’s permission. There are thousands of the Islamic nation’s youths who are eager to die just as the Americans are eager to live. ]([Responsibility for the September 11 attacks - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Responsibility_for_the_September_11_attacks)) > [@](#): > > In late October 2001, Al Jazeera journalist Tayseer Allouni conducted an interview with Osama bin Laden which was videotaped. Al-Jazeera refused to broadcast it[64] and terminated its affiliation agreement with CNN[65] due to CNN’s broadcasting of the interview on January 31, 2002.[66] In the interview, bin Laden addressed the September 11 attacks, saying > If inciting people to do that is terrorism, and if killing those who kill our sons is terrorism, then let history be witness that we are terrorists … We will work to continue this battle, God permitting, until victory or until we meet God before that occurs. > [@](#): > > In November 2001, US forces recovered a videotape from a bombed house in Jalalabad, Afghanistan which showed Osama bin Laden talking to Khaled al-Harbi. In the tape, bin Laden talks of planning the attacks. Translations from the tape include the following lines: > …we calculated in advance the number of casualties from the enemy, who would be killed based on the position of the tower. We calculated that the floors that would be hit would be three or four floors. I was the most optimistic of them all…We had notification since the previous Thursday that the event would take place that day. We had finished our work that day and had the radio on…Muhammad (Atta) from the Egyptian family (meaning the al-Qaeda Egyptian group), was in charge of the group…The brothers, who conducted the operation, all they knew was that they have a martyrdom operation and we asked each of them to go to America but they didn’t know anything about the operation, not even one letter. But they were trained and we did not reveal the operation to them until they are there and just before they boarded the planes. Although not authenticated AFAIK > [@](#): > > In an audio message that surfaced on the Internet in May 2006 the speaker, who is alleged to be Osama bin Laden, defends Zacarias Moussaoui, who was undergoing a trial for his participation in the September 11 attacks. The voice in the audio message says > “I begin by talking about the honorable brother Zacarias Moussaoui. The truth is that he has no connection whatsoever with the events of September 11th, and I am certain of what I say, because I was responsible for entrusting the 19 brothers — Allah have mercy upon them — with those raids, and I did not assign brother Zacarias to be with them on that mission.” Links provided so you can find more info, if you need to. ---
**Author:** ![EasyPhil](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e47c2d/32.png) [@EasyPhil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EasyPhil)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-austin-tx/529560/56 "2010-02-21T00:21:19Z")
Wikepedia articles…you’re assumption is that they are authenticated? This is a joke right? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [February 21, 2010, 1:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-austin-tx/529560/57 "2010-02-21T01:36:08Z")
> [@EasyPhil](#): > > What do we call an action that’s similiar to an action that’s been labled a terrorist attack? We call it a terrorist attack _if that’s what it is_. The fact that people died doesn’t make it terrorism by itself. The motivation and the goals make a difference. > [@EasyPhil](#): > > Wikepedia articles…you’re assumption is that they are authenticated? This is a joke right? Are you joking? You haven’t seen or read about the dozens of statements they have made that were related to September 11th? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-austin-tx/529560.md?page=2)