# Plane crash in Buffalo, New York. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 13, 2009, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-buffalo-new-york/485660 "2009-02-13T06:40:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-buffalo-new-york/485660/81 "2009-05-15T13:49:51Z")
just thought of a fourth question: putting the flaps up is the wrong thing because it further decreases airspeed? ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-buffalo-new-york/485660/82 "2009-05-15T14:35:44Z")
> [@Northern Piper](#): > > To help me follow the discussion, can you let me know if I’ve correctly understood three points: > > - a stall is triggered when the plane’s speed drops below a certain level, so the airflow over the wings is no longer sufficient to provide lift? and, First of all a quick note on angle of attack. The angle of attack is the angle created between the wing and the relative airflow. Angle of attack is directly related to lift. Lift is also related to airspeed. To keep the aeroplane flying level it needs to create enough lift to counteract it’s weight. If airspeed is increased, lift is increased, if angle of attack is increased, lift is increased and vice versa. Therefore, to maintain sufficient lift as the aeroplane slows down, the angle of attack must be increased. A stall occurs when the angle of attack becomes so great that the air flowing over the top of the wing becomes turbulent and separates from the wing surface. Without the smooth flow of air over the top of the wing, it no longer creates sufficient lift. When flying in straight and level flight (i.e., not turning, climbing, or descending) this will happen at a particular speed in a given aeroplane with a given weight and a given flap setting. This is known as the stall speed and is a useful figure for a pilot because s/he has an airspeed indicator but often will not have an angle of attack indicator. Because the stall actually occurs at a particular angle of attack, you can stall at speeds greater than the stall speed. For example, if you were flying straight at a speed safely above the stall speed and then rapidly pitched the nose of the aeroplane up, the angle of attack would be increased briefly and you may stall at the higher speed. That’s enough to know for this accident, but I can go into more detail if you like. > [@](#): > > - the best way to recover from a stall is to put the nose down somewhat (by pushing the stick forward), to allow gravity to increase speed quickly, but obviously avoiding a nose-dive? and, Because the problem you have is an excessive angle of attack, the quickest and most effective way to recover from a stall is to reduce the angle of attack, this is done by lowering the nose. You will end up losing some height in the process and so you also need to add power to minimise the height loss. > [@](#): > > - by putting the nose up (by pulling the stick back), the danger from the stall is increased because the airspeed drops even more, decreasing the lift further? The immediate problem with pulling the nose up is not so much that you lose further airspeed but that you further increase the angle of attack. The key point here is that although a stall from straight and level flight occurs at a particular airspeed, it is fundamentally the angle of attack that is the problem. > [@](#): > > putting the flaps up is the wrong thing because it further decreases airspeed? Flaps change the shape of the wing. When the flaps are extended they improve the way the air flows over the wing at high angles of attack. The effect of having flaps out is that the stall speed is lowered. By putting the flaps up during the stall recovery, you are changing the shape of the wing to one that will more readily stall, therefore it will make your stall worse rather than better. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-buffalo-new-york/485660/83 "2009-05-15T14:43:10Z")
Thanks very much! ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-buffalo-new-york/485660/84 "2009-05-15T15:01:25Z")
No worries! A couple of other things. There are two anti stall devices fitted to the larger Dash 8s (300 and 400 series), a stick shaker and a stick pusher. The stick shaker is a warning device that shakes the control column before the stall occurs. If you start your recovery at the stick shaker, you will probably avoid stalling and will likely recover with little, if any, height loss. Then there is the stick pusher. Stick pushers are fitted to aircraft where testing has shown that the stall characteristics are such that entering a full stall should be avoided. These characteristics may include difficulty recovering from a full stall, unusual control responses, etc. The stick pusher pushes the control column forward sometime after the stick shaker has activated but still prior to entering a fully developed stall. It’s a last ditch automated effort at keeping the aeroplane flying. The stick pusher can’t use so much force that it can’t be overpowered by the pilot though. You have to be able to over-ride the stick pusher in case it activates in error. It’s interesting to note that the small Cessna and Piper training aircraft that most pilots learn on, have docile stalling characteristics. They have a pronounced buffet over the wing that can be felt through the control column and the nose will drop by itself once the stall has occurred. Effectively the stick shakers and pushers of larger aircraft are simulating the type of stall response that pilots were trained with. They make the control column shake and then push the nose down. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-buffalo-new-york/485660/85 "2009-05-15T22:46:19Z")
CBS is reporting that Colgan Air’s starting salary for a pilot is $24,000.00 a year. ---
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2009, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-buffalo-new-york/485660/86 "2009-05-15T22:53:41Z")
> [@Sound Mind](#): > > CBS is reporting that Colgan Air’s starting salary for a pilot is $24,000.00 a year. Sorry it was ABC > **[Regional Pilots Share Their Stories](https://abcnews.com/Travel/Story?id=7596312&page=2)** > > The National Transportation Safety Board's hearing to examine the February plane crash in Buffalo, N.Y., leaves some wondering whether pilots and crew are getting the training they need to ensure travelers stay safe on regional and commuter planes. And what it actually said was that the co-pilot on the flight made LESS THAN $24,000.00 a year. And sometimes they work 16 hour shifts. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-buffalo-new-york/485660/87 "2009-05-16T00:44:31Z")
Yeah, they’re not getting much. It’s hard to equate that to Australian dollars because just adjusting for exchange rate doesn’t necessarily account for any difference in cost of living. According to this [Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/05/13/AR2009051301848.html) article, her salary was $16200. > [@Washington Post](#): > > Under questioning from the board, Mary Colgan Finnigan, Colgan’s vice president for administration, confirmed that Rebecca Shaw, co-pilot of the fatal flight, drew an annual salary of about $16,200. The board also said that Shaw once held a second job in a coffee shop while working as a pilot for the airline in Norfolk. > > Asked whether Colgan expected Shaw to live in the expensive New York area, near her base in Newark, Finnegan responded: “Pilots are told what the pay scales are. Our pay scales are within the industry standard.” The $24000 probably includes her overnight allowances. Adjusting for exchange rate only, the base salary of $16200 is about $21600 Australian dollars. Pilots working for our company start at three times that much. Even a few years ago when there was an over supply of pilots in the region, our FOs were still getting twice as much as the Colgan FOs are getting. Unfortunately, when pilots just want to fly and get enough hours to apply for a major airline, they’ll work for very low wages. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-buffalo-new-york/485660/88 "2009-05-16T01:10:30Z")
On further reading that article, the $24000 is the average pay for Colgan’s co-pilots. ---
**Author:** ![Av8trix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/90db22/32.png) [@Av8trix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Av8trix)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2009, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-buffalo-new-york/485660/89 "2009-05-16T22:30:24Z")
If anyone’s interested in comparing salaries for pilots at various regional carriers, [Regional | AirlinePilotCentral.com](http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/regional.html) Has a nice little calculator that lets you easily figure out the yearly net pay for each position and seniority. Great Lakes, for example [Great Lakes Airlines | AirlinePilotCentral.com](http://www.airlinepilotcentral.com/airlines/regional/great_lakes.html) These are folks, who, if you book a flight on Frontier, or United, may be operating the small “commuter” airplane you may fly on. You can see from the hourly pay rates that a first year FO’s hourly rate is $16 per hour Below that, drag your mouse over the"hourly rate" button to select 16 Drag your mouse over “Credit time” to select 75 (Which is an typical “min monthly guarantee” for most regionals) Drag your mouse over “bid periods” to select 12 Total annual net pay for a first year FO at Great Lakes =14,400 Total annual net pay for a very senior captain would be 43,200 It’s an interesting website to experiment with the pay calculators- they have regional, LLC, and “legacy” carriers all available to peruse payrates. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 1:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-buffalo-new-york/485660/90 "2009-05-17T01:17:54Z")
Yeah that’s an interesting site. I’ve joined the forums though it may be a bit US-centric for me. Are you shows are net figures? It doesn’t really say anywhere, and the calculator just multiplies hours by hourly rate without accounting for income tax. ---
**Author:** ![Av8trix](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/90db22/32.png) [@Av8trix](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Av8trix)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 2:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-buffalo-new-york/485660/91 "2009-05-17T02:16:43Z")
[quote=“1920s Style “Death Ray”, post:90, topic:485660”] Yeah that’s an interesting site. I’ve joined the forums though it may be a bit US-centric for me. Are you shows are net figures? It doesn’t really say anywhere, and the calculator just multiplies hours by hourly rate without accounting for income tax. [/QUOTE] Bah. You know when you think one thing and say the other? Yeah. That’s it. You’re correct, these are _Gross_ figures. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-buffalo-new-york/485660/92 "2009-05-17T05:15:18Z")
Those are shit wages. Adjusting for currency, the FO would be making minimum wage here in Ontario. In other words, pouring coffee at a Tim Hortons outlet. That’s seriously wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Cicero](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cicero/32/3594_2.png) [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 9:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-buffalo-new-york/485660/93 "2009-05-17T09:04:06Z")
> [@Leaffan](#): > > Those are shit wages. Adjusting for currency, the FO would be making minimum wage here in Ontario. In other words, pouring coffee at a Tim Hortons outlet. > > That’s seriously wrong. I agree- it astounds me that a pilot works for that amount. I wouldn’t get out of bed for that. Wait- I don’t… ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-buffalo-new-york/485660/94 "2009-05-17T11:10:53Z")
> [@Av8trix](#): > > Bah. You know when you think one thing and say the other? Yes, much like when you think you’re writing coherent sentences but you’re really spewing crap like this: > [@me](#): > > Are you shows are net figures? 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [May 17, 2009, 11:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-buffalo-new-york/485660/95 "2009-05-17T11:14:48Z")
> [@Cicero](#): > > I agree- it astounds me that a pilot works for that amount. > > I wouldn’t get out of bed for that. Wait- I don’t… Yeah, it’s crap. I think it stems from pilots having to pay so much for their training and then the lines get blurred between training and work. You get places that offer to let you fly in their aircraft for a while after you have paid them for a type rating. So you pay them to train you and then you get to work for them for free! YAY! To the young upwardly mobile pilot it is a chance to get some experience that may help them get a “real” job. To those who might be happy flying in regional airlines as a career, it just drags down the terms and conditions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-buffalo-new-york/485660.md?page=4)