# Plane Crash in Kentucky **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 27, 2006, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-kentucky/370406 "2006-08-27T14:18:23Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Bambi\_Hassenpfeffer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bambi_Hassenpfeffer)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 2:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-kentucky/370406/1 "2006-08-27T14:18:23Z")
Delta 5191 out of Lexington, bound for Atlanta, crashed this morning a mile from Blue Grass Airport. 50 people on board, of whom 1 survived. He’s in critical condition at UK hospital. The reason for the crash is not currently known; witnesses report a fire, but it is not clear whether the fire came before or after the crash. CNN is covering it live. Are all of our Kentucky Dopers ok? ---
**Author:** ![NicePete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee7513/32.png) [@NicePete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NicePete)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-kentucky/370406/2 "2006-08-27T16:18:25Z")
> [@Bambi Hassenpfeffer](#): > > Delta 5191 out of Lexington, bound for Atlanta, crashed this morning a mile from Blue Grass Airport. 50 people on board, of whom 1 survived. He’s in critical condition at UK hospital. > > The reason for the crash is not currently known; witnesses report a fire, but it is not clear whether the fire came before or after the crash. CNN is covering it live. > > Are all of our Kentucky Dopers ok? It looks like the plane crashed on takeoff very near US 60. The picture I’ve seen looks like it’s right in front of Keeneland. So it didn’t crash in a populated area. I haven’t seen a passenger list. I was working at Bluegrass Airport in the '80s (around 1987) when a 4 passenger plane crashed very close to the same spot. I wonder if there’s something about the runway that makes it likely. ---
**Author:** ![Eureka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/74df32/32.png) [@Eureka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eureka)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-kentucky/370406/3 "2006-08-27T16:22:18Z")
> [@NicePete](#): > > I wonder if there’s something about the runway that makes it likely. I kind of doubt it-- at least beyond well that’s what is located on the ground shortly after takeoff. They spent last weekend resurfacing the runway, and moving it 350 yars southwest, as a part of lengthening the runway. ---
**Author:** ![brianjedi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@brianjedi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianjedi)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 4:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-kentucky/370406/4 "2006-08-27T16:24:27Z")
I woke up about 10:45, flipped the TV on and was surprised to see LEX18 News. I’m watching a press conference with airport officials and Lexington fire and police right now. They won’t confirm that the plane may have used the wrong runway (they just repaved the main runway, but the runway indicators may not have been replaced correctly.) The short general aviation runway would have been the first one the plane came to, but the lights would have been off because it’s daylight only until they can repair the pavement. They are confirming 49 fatalities. The plane caught fire after it crashed, and a couple of Lexington police were injured while trying to rescue people from the plane (including the first officer) but have been treated and are ok. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-kentucky/370406/5 "2006-08-27T16:42:51Z")
LEX runway 04/22 is 3,500 feet long. 08/26 is 7,003 feet long. I have not been able to find the minimum runway length required by the Bombardier Canadair CRJ100. ---
**Author:** ![brianjedi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@brianjedi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianjedi)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-kentucky/370406/6 "2006-08-27T16:55:12Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > LEX runway 04/22 is 3,500 feet long. 08/26 is 7,003 feet long. > > I have not been able to find the minimum runway length required by the Bombardier Canadair CRJ100. WKYT’s chief meteorologist (and a licensed pilot) said it’s between 5000-6000 feet depending on which model the plane actually was. Either way, it’s a lot longer than the 3400 feet or so that the GA runway is. There’s a couple of bad places in the end of the short runway, and some trees not far from the end of it. WLEX’s radar (which is the only radar station actually in Lexington) shows that there was a pretty strong storm cell right around the airport. ---
**Author:** ![SmackFu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/53a042/32.png) [@SmackFu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmackFu)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-kentucky/370406/7 "2006-08-27T17:18:14Z")
So if the runway was too short, wouldn’t that be pretty obvious in where it crashed? ---
**Author:** ![Kilvert\_s\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@Kilvert\_s\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kilvert_s_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-kentucky/370406/8 "2006-08-27T17:27:29Z")
Another LexDoper checking in here. I’ve taken that flight many times but, thankfully, not this week. To summarize some stuff here: [ul] [li]The crash site is directly, linearly, beyond the west end of the 3500’ runway. I don’t see any way how any plane taking the CORRECT runway could possible have crashed there.[/li][li]The plane took out part of the fence between the end of the “wrong” runway and the crash site.[/li][li]The commercial runway (the 7000’ one) WAS repaved last weekend, but the short runway was not (other then where they intersect).[/li][li]The only survivor was the co-pilot, and he’s in critical condition at UK.[/li][/ul] I’m waiting in apprehension for the release of the passenger list. Given the time of the flight, it’s likely to be mostly locals. I have a number of fellow associates from work flying out today on business, but they all appear to be OK. Since they were headed to Green Bay, they weren’t likely to be changing planes in Atlanta. ---
**Author:** ![Kilvert\_s\_Pagan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c37758/32.png) [@Kilvert\_s\_Pagan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kilvert_s_Pagan)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-kentucky/370406/9 "2006-08-27T17:30:01Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > LEX runway 04/22 is 3,500 feet long. 08/26 is 7,003 feet long. I think you’ve got these flipped, **JLA**. 08/26 is the general aviation runway, running close to east/west. 04/22 is the 7000’ runway. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-kentucky/370406/10 "2006-08-27T17:32:47Z")
> [@Kilvert's Pagan](#): > > I think you’ve got these flipped, **JLA**. 08/26 is the general aviation runway, running close to east/west. 04/22 is the 7000’ runway. You are correct. I switched them. ---
**Author:** ![brianjedi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@brianjedi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianjedi)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-kentucky/370406/11 "2006-08-27T17:37:46Z")
NBC News has confirmed that the plane did in fact take off from the wrong runway, as WLEX have been reporting. They recovered both recorders from the plane, so it will be interesting to hear what was going on in the cockpit. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-kentucky/370406/12 "2006-08-27T17:44:08Z")
> [@Johnny L.A.](#): > > LEX runway 04/22 is 3,500 feet long. 08/26 is 7,003 feet long. > > I have not been able to find the minimum runway length required by the Bombardier Canadair CRJ100. The reports I’ve heard are that it was a -200 (extended range - the -100 is the base model, less fuel but more payload). The entire Comair fleet is CRJ’s. [The Canadair site](http://www.crj.bombardier.com/CRJ/en/specifications.jsp?langId=en&crjId=200) lists the takeoff distance (sea level, max gross, this plane was near both) as 5800 feet (-100) or 6290 feet (-200). [Here](http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060827/NEWS01/60827004) it says the crash was off the end of 26, and the “8” on the visible runway end confirms it. It also says that 26 is 3500 feet - and [it is, sorry, you got them backward](http://www.airnav.com/airport/KLEX). The photo makes it appear the plane never got out of ground effect before hitting a low ridge, consistent with the wrong-runway scenario. It doesn’t seem likely that such a stupid mistake could have been made, but they do get made anyway. I personally put a lot of my career into bringing the CRJ into being, and this one hits me harder than most crashes. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-kentucky/370406/13 "2006-08-27T17:46:19Z")
> [@Kilvert's Pagan](#): > > I’m waiting in apprehension for the release of the passenger list. Given the time of the flight, it’s likely to be mostly locals. [Looks that way, sorry.](http://www.courier-journal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060827/NEWS01/60827015) I hope it’s nobody you know. ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-kentucky/370406/14 "2006-08-27T18:35:53Z")
I don’t see any tracks in that photo, nor damage to trees, which one would expect if the plane had simply run off the end of the runway. A quick check in Google Earth shows that this is indeed the end of the short runway. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-kentucky/370406/15 "2006-08-27T18:49:13Z")
A plane can reach a high enough airspeed to fly in ground effect (where the air pushed down by the wings bounces off the ground and pushes back up, basically) long before it can actually climb. The crew might have realized their mistake too late to stop the aircraft on the runway, but in time to rotate prematurely, perhaps adding flaps to gain lift - and then got caught on the back side of the power curve, unable to accelerate to climb speed sufficiently quickly with the extra drag caused by the extra flaps, yet unable to to retract them and lose the lift they needed to stay airborne. Short-field takeoffs are a normal procedure (if not in airline practice), but they require having enough clear, level space beyond your takeoff point to accelerate to climb airspeed while in ground effect. ---
**Author:** ![brianjedi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@brianjedi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brianjedi)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-kentucky/370406/16 "2006-08-27T18:52:19Z")
> [@ElvisL1ves](#): > > A plane can reach a high enough airspeed to fly in ground effect (where the air pushed down by the wings bounces off the ground and pushes back up, basically) long before it can actually climb. The crew might have realized their mistake too late to stop the aircraft on the runway, but in time to rotate prematurely, perhaps adding flaps to gain lift - and then got caught on the back side of the power curve, unable to accelerate to climb speed sufficiently quickly with the extra drag caused by the extra flaps, yet unable to to retract them and lose the lift they needed to stay airborne. Short-field takeoffs are a normal procedure (if not in airline practice), but they require having enough clear, level space beyond your takeoff point to accelerate to climb airspeed while in ground effect. Since you seem to know what you’re talking about, what affect would the collapsing storm cell have on the plane? Bill Meck (WLEX’s meteorologist) seemed to think that there would have been a pretty substantial downdraft as the storm dissipated. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-kentucky/370406/17 "2006-08-27T19:12:47Z")
Since you inquire, albeit indirectly, I’m an aerospace engineer who has designed jet engine parts and systems for 25 years now - that includes the engines on the Canadair RJ’s. I am also a private pilot. Intense local storms tend to produce microbursts with downward-flowing air. As these near the ground, the air turns from downward to horizontal, in all directions. If a plane flies into a microburst, it first hits a headwind of increasing speed, then the “eye” of the microburst, then a tailwind of high and then decreasing speed. The headwind will increase the plane’s airspeed momentarily, lifting it up (it will decelerate from the higher drag, but not instantaneously). As it hits the “eye” of the microburst, its airspeed drops, and to an even lower airspeed than it had originally due to its deceleration in the earlier phase. The sudden tailwind on the far side suddenly _lowers_ the plane’s airspeed, perhaps stalling the wings at too low an altitude to recover. ---
**Author:** ![Ins\_Outs\_What-have-yous](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8797f3/32.png) [@Ins\_Outs\_What-have-yous](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ins_Outs_What-have-yous)\ **Post date:** [August 27, 2006, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-kentucky/370406/18 "2006-08-27T21:56:02Z")
My sympathies go to all of the families and friends of the victims. I may or may now know any victims; the tragedy has equal magnitude either way. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2006, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-kentucky/370406/19 "2006-08-28T03:04:25Z")
KY Doper checking in. Nobody I know on the list so far, but I’m pretty sure it’s incomplete. ---
**Author:** ![Grits\_and\_Hard\_Toast](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a183cd/32.png) [@Grits\_and\_Hard\_Toast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grits_and_Hard_Toast)\ **Post date:** [August 28, 2006, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-kentucky/370406/20 "2006-08-28T03:59:08Z")
I don’t know if anyone here follows horseracing, but as you would guess, several well known horsemen and relatives of the big stud farm families and employees were killed. > **[Kentucky horsemen among 49 killed in plane crash](https://www.espn.com/sports/horse/news/story?id=2562917)** > > A Comair regional jet crashed Sunday morning at 6:07 a.m. shortly after take-off from Lexington's Blue Grass Field airport, killing 49 of the people 50 aboard, officials said. Flight 5191 was headed to Atlanta and was carrying 47 passengers and three... And some long time friends of my husband’s family were on board. So very sad… [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-in-kentucky/370406.md?page=2)