# Plane crash question **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 5, 2017, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-question/792864 "2017-08-05T21:17:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2017, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-question/792864/21 "2017-08-06T16:10:40Z")
Good work! I agree you’ve found the touchdown trail. In the 4th photo just behind the left wing we also see a wheel-sized trail of grassy debris across the blacktop. That does leave the landing gear failure mode a mystery. The main gear retracts inward and \*if \*he slid to a stop with a left ~90 degree turn at the end as we now think \*then \*I’d expect to see the right main fold inwards but the left main be extended intact. We see mostly the opposite case. Although as I suggested earlier, if the gear was only partly extended at touchdown darn near anything could happen next. There’s no guarantee the legs all extend in sync. It may be the right main got fully down and locked first and the others didn’t quite get locked before touchdown. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2017, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-question/792864/22 "2017-08-06T16:17:00Z")
> [@igor\_frankensteen](#): > > Aha! Yup. Look at the SECOND from the last. You can see that he landed at a ninety degree angle to the pavement, tore up the lawn in the distance, and as the plane came to a stop on THIS side of the blacktop, it twisted to the side. > > The reason there’s no torn up grass directly behind the plane as it came fully to rest, is that directly behind it, is NOT where it landed. Good call – once I knew what to look for I can see it too. Was landing perpendicular to the driveway, upon going over the paved “speedbump” must have had the left gear catch on a hole or soft ground, making it turn to the left. The object under the outboard right wing in photo 3 seems to be one of the other landing gears, detached? ---
**Author:** ![igor\_frankensteen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/839c29/32.png) [@igor\_frankensteen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/igor_frankensteen)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2017, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-question/792864/23 "2017-08-06T16:50:14Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Good work! I agree you’ve found the touchdown trail. In the 4th photo just behind the left wing we also see a wheel-sized trail of grassy debris across the blacktop. > > That does leave the landing gear failure mode a mystery. The main gear retracts inward and \*if \*he slid to a stop with a left ~90 degree turn at the end as we now think \*then \*I’d expect to see the right main fold inwards but the left main be extended intact. We see mostly the opposite case. Although as I suggested earlier, if the gear was only partly extended at touchdown darn near anything could happen next. There’s no guarantee the legs all extend in sync. It may be the right main got fully down and locked first and the others didn’t quite get locked before touchdown. I see as well, that even though the plane is now resting on the LEFT wing, that the right wingtip is bent upward. The ground must have done that. So maybe when it hit the driveway, the RIGHT landing gear broke off, the right wing hit the ground, and then the left gear folded under the plane out of site. Could even be that the propeller didn’t hit the ground and bend until that moment. Fun trying to work this kind of stuff out. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2017, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-question/792864/24 "2017-08-06T18:19:38Z")
Agreed on the above. Really need to know where he was coming from & going to and what altitude he was when the engine quit. Without that info, I think he was coming from about 160-170° trying for Skiatook airport. No idea if it was his original destination. Wires along 133 st. scared him into a low altitude right turn where the right wing grazed the ground and the gear not being all the way down & locked when the plane rolled to the left it too out the left gear, nose gear went soon after, pavement bump, soft ground, fwd pitching effect (?) and so we see it at rest. Had he been coming from the West I would think he would have ended up on the North side of 133rd & not East of the runway extended center line. More info, more info, peanut gallery needs more info… 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2017, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-question/792864/25 "2017-08-06T18:22:54Z")
How about this… The plane landed with the gear extended. Since braking performance on grass would be limited, when it reached the driveway it still had considerable speed. When it hit the driveway, the abrupt edge of the asphalt caused the left gear to fail, maybe break off entirely. With the left wingtip now dragging on the ground, the plane slows quickly and makes a rapid turn to its left; too rapid, and the plane tips to the right, bending the right wing upward. When the plane comes back down, the nose gear collapses and propeller gets bent. It’s not perfect. The marks in the grass that **igor** noticed are more than I’d expect to see if the plane came down on its wheels. But other pictures show less damage than I’d expect if the plane was sliding on its belly; look at the second and fourth pictures, no drag marks behind the sharp propeller blades. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2017, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-question/792864/26 "2017-08-06T18:55:15Z")
I could see him approaching from the southwest, not southeast as **Gus** suggested. He’s aiming for the runway and he’s not going to make it but he doesn’t realize that yet. Trying to “stretch a glide” has that effect. For awhile. Finally late in the game it becomes obvious he’s got too little energy to make it past 133rd and about then he sees the wires. So instead of a 45 left to align with the runway as he’d planned, he turns 45 right to align more or less with 133rd and sets it down when altitude, speed, and ideas all run dry at once. Another idea about the gear. He may have extended it earlier and upon getting into a crack decided to raise it to extend the glide. But only got it halfway up before touchdown. A big question for me is how high was he when the whole scenario started? Big difference in thinking and in options when it happens at 10,000’ vs 5,000’ vs 1000’ v 500’. There’s also a big difference between he knew he was down to fumes and was doing all he could to milk it home. vs. the first awareness he had of his touchy fuel state was the sudden onset of silence. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-question/792864/27 "2017-08-07T00:58:17Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > How about this… > > The plane landed with the gear extended. Since braking performance on grass would be limited, when it reached the driveway it still had considerable speed. When it hit the driveway, the abrupt edge of the asphalt caused the left gear to fail, maybe break off entirely. With the left wingtip now dragging on the ground, the plane slows quickly and makes a rapid turn to its left; too rapid, and the plane tips to the right, bending the right wing upward. When the plane comes back down, the nose gear collapses and propeller gets bent. > > It’s not perfect. The marks in the grass that **igor** noticed are more than I’d expect to see if the plane came down on its wheels. But other pictures show less damage than I’d expect if the plane was sliding on its belly; look at the second and fourth pictures, no drag marks behind the sharp propeller blades. Look at pic #3, there’s a gully between where the plane is & the driveway; I bet that’s what caused the left gear collapse & pivot. Pic #4 shows dirt across the driveway right behind the left wing; perhaps from the still-in-place right gear??? ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-question/792864/28 "2017-08-07T02:36:47Z")
> [@Spiderman](#): > > Look at pic #3, there’s a gully between where the plane is & the driveway; I bet that’s what caused the left gear collapse & pivot. I see what you mean, but in the next picture it doesn’t look like the gully extends far enough back to have caught the left gear, unless the plane moved backwards after the gear collapsed. One possibility that no one has mentioned is that the plane may have been moved after the accident. It’s possible that it came to rest on the driveway and the homeowner moved it so he could come and go without driving on his grass. I know the FAA frowns on that, but whoever moved it may not have known that. Or perhaps the FAA investigated, the plane was moved, and the pictures were taken before they could make arrangements to have the plane taken away. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-question/792864/29 "2017-08-07T03:44:17Z")
**Robot Arm** Got me to thinking again. (Yeah, dangerous, I know. ) Shadows indicate it is not too late in the day at picture time. No people, no vehicles, no lookey loues, no live interviews… ?? No land owners… ? Maybe this happened a lot earlier than we are thinking. The track behind the left wing does look sorta dry. 😕 ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-question/792864/30 "2017-08-07T03:59:50Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > **Robot Arm** Got me to thinking again. (Yeah, dangerous, I know. ) Shadows indicate it is not too late in the day at picture time. No people, no vehicles, no lookey loues, no live interviews… ?? No land owners… ? > > Maybe this happened a lot earlier than we are thinking. The track behind the left wing does look sorta dry. 😕 Good job finding the location on Google Maps, by the way, but their pictures must be pretty old. The street has been widened and repainted, and look how much those trees in front of the houses have grown. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-question/792864/31 "2017-08-07T15:46:37Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Good job finding the location on Google Maps, by the way, but their pictures must be pretty old. The street has been widened and repainted, and look how much those trees in front of the houses have grown. Agreed: But: What does that have to do with the picture the TV folks took?? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-question/792864/32 "2017-08-07T16:06:06Z")
Prop strikes ground = new engine? ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 4:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-question/792864/33 "2017-08-07T16:31:06Z")
> [@watchwolf49](#): > > Prop strikes ground = new engine? It will have to be torn down and rebuilt. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-question/792864/34 "2017-08-07T16:49:05Z")
> [@GusNSpot](#): > > What does that have to do with the picture the TV folks took?? 😕 Nothing at all. Just thought it was interesting. Think of all the money and effort that Google put in to creating its maps and street views. It was amazing when it first came out, but unless they put in the effort to maintain it, like so many other technological marvels, it will someday be outdated. Actually, when I first checked your link I wasn’t sure it was the right place. The road (visible in the car’s side mirror) was wrong, the trees were wrong. I had to study the buildings for a while to see that you were right. ---
**Author:** ![SCAdian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/scadian/32/3292_2.png) [@SCAdian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SCAdian)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-question/792864/35 "2017-08-07T19:40:56Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#): > > “Hey Buddy, you can’t park here!” “Well, I sure couldn’t park where I ran out of gas!” ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-question/792864/36 "2017-08-07T20:20:41Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Nothing at all. Just thought it was interesting. Think of all the money and effort that Google put in to creating its maps and street views. It was amazing when it first came out, but unless they put in the effort to maintain it, like so many other technological marvels, it will someday be outdated. > > Actually, when I first checked your link I wasn’t sure it was the right place. The road (visible in the car’s side mirror) was wrong, the trees were wrong. I had to study the buildings for a while to see that you were right. One day about in 1982 I was asked to look up a piece of property from 1965 photography. They had the 1982 coverage. No sweat I thought. Spent over 30 minutes making sure it was the same place. The big creek was over ½ mile from 82 coverage, roads & fields were all different. Was all farm land so no buildings to compare. The pictures were covering about 6000 feet square. I finally found one triangle shaped field that the trees and fence rows had stayed close enough that I knew we had the correct section. I was always amazed how much land could change without human interference, Oxbows along rivers I knew were quick to move but just plain unworked farm land. Google does better in the denser population areas, sometimes not even a month behind but if the road crew or building guys are working hard, it is almost impossible. One of the reasons we stayed in business, get you a picture the same day. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-question/792864/37 "2017-08-07T20:22:29Z")
Also, tree patterns and locations of same are better clues. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2017, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-question/792864/38 "2017-08-07T21:39:40Z")
I was admiring the casual way you knew azimuths from sun angle and approximate time of day, found the location, described for others how to find it, etc. Just one of those things you’ve done so often for so long that it looks effortless, and probably feels that way to you too. But there’s a bunch of skill in there. It shows. ---
**Author:** ![GusNSpot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gusnspot/32/436_2.png) [@GusNSpot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GusNSpot)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2017, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-question/792864/39 "2017-08-08T13:55:27Z")
Thanks for that. 😃 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-crash-question/792864.md?page=1)