# Plane dumps fuel on Elementary school playground. **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [January 14, 2020, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-dumps-fuel-on-elementary-school-playground/846428 "2020-01-14T22:45:35Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-dumps-fuel-on-elementary-school-playground/846428/1 "2020-01-14T22:45:35Z")
Well, they should be thankful it wasn’t the sewage tank. 😉 I’ve gotten gas spilled on me disconnecting the fuel line on cars. Runs down the hand to the armpit. Not pleasant, but it’s not painful. IIRC Jet Fuel is oily? Similar to Diesel fuel? Jet fuel is different from gas? How caustic is it? Would hosing the kids down with water be enough? The response seems a bit extreme. But I’ve never come in contact with jet fuel. Raw Sewage seems more dangerous. > **[A Jet Dumped Fuel On Elementary Students While They Were Playing Outside](https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/briannasacks/jet-fuel-dumped-elementary-students-lax)** > > Paramedics treated at least 35 people for skin irritation and other minor injuries, the LA County Fire Department said. > [@](#): > > More than 70 firefighters with the Los Angeles County Fire Department, as well as paramedics, responded to a call from Park Avenue Elementary school in Cudahy at around 12:30 p.m. Tuesday. The call reported that a low-flying aircraft dumped fuel on “numerous students” while they were playing, Sean Ferguson, a spokesperson with the department, told BuzzFeed News. > > First responders have treated about 35 people — including 17 children — for minor injuries, such as skin irritation, the department tweeted Tuesday afternoon. The department also confirmed that the dumped substance was jet fuel. ---
**Author:** ![swampspruce](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/swampspruce/32/261_2.png) [@swampspruce](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/swampspruce)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 10:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-dumps-fuel-on-elementary-school-playground/846428/2 "2020-01-14T22:50:01Z")
Jet fuel is essentially kerosene so yeah, oily, and can cause contact dermatitis. No fun in the eyes either. I had 20 years experience fuelling jets, and it’s not a fun bathtime experience at all… ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-dumps-fuel-on-elementary-school-playground/846428/3 "2020-01-14T22:55:31Z")
They are getting really bold with those chemtrails! ---
**Author:** ![WildaBeast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wildabeast/32/6_2.png) [@WildaBeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildaBeast)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-dumps-fuel-on-elementary-school-playground/846428/4 "2020-01-14T22:59:05Z")
I had always understood, like the expert quoted at the end of the article stated, that typically when a jet dumps fuel in an emergency it’s done at a high enough altitude that it evaporates before it reaches the ground. I assume in this instance since the emergency occured shortly after takeoff they weren’t able to reach such an altitude. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-dumps-fuel-on-elementary-school-playground/846428/5 "2020-01-14T23:03:26Z")
I wasn’t sure how much the fuel dispersed before hitting the ground. I wouldn’t want to be drenched in any fuel. Some droplets would be more tolerable. I’d still want a shower ASAP. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-dumps-fuel-on-elementary-school-playground/846428/6 "2020-01-14T23:13:35Z")
> [@WildaBeast](#): > > I had always understood, like the expert quoted at the end of the article stated, that typically when a jet dumps fuel in an emergency it’s done at a high enough altitude that it evaporates before it reaches the ground. I assume in this instance since the emergency occured shortly after takeoff they weren’t able to reach such an altitude. In the article, it says the minimum altitude for dumping fuel is 2000 ft, and this plane was at 2375 ft. But it also says planes are supposed to dump fuel over designated unpopulated areas, which this likely was not. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-dumps-fuel-on-elementary-school-playground/846428/7 "2020-01-14T23:20:38Z")
911 was called for a mass casualty haz-mat (hazardous materials) incident. There was some time delay between the plane flying overhead & the fuel landing on the children/ground. Depending upon configuration of the school & playground areas the plane may have been out of sight (beyond a treeline or it’s view blocked by the school building) by the time the kids started to feel the fuel. Add an additional 30 seconds to realize it’s not just one kid who got hit by a flying bird but it’s a bunch of them before a teacher or aid pulls out a phone to call emergency services & the plane is now long gone. Even if a teacher saw the plane dumping fuel, no one was sure it was fuel at first. Since this is unusual it might take some extra time to confirm that it was an legitimate emergency aircraft fuel dump & not something more nefarious the response was totally appropriate in my opinion. Depending upon what one has been exposed to, haz-mat teams are prepared to give a full scrubdown shower, removing (& even destroying) clothing, if necessary. While there’s probably a spill kit on each fire truck, the full on haz-mat truck is a specialized vehicle, complete with their own crew of personal (usually; don’t know specifics of LACFD). ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-dumps-fuel-on-elementary-school-playground/846428/8 "2020-01-14T23:31:20Z")
dupe ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-dumps-fuel-on-elementary-school-playground/846428/9 "2020-01-14T23:33:19Z")
> [@WildaBeast](#): > > I had always understood, like the expert quoted at the end of the article stated, that typically when a jet dumps fuel in an emergency it’s done at a high enough altitude that it evaporates before it reaches the ground. I assume in this instance since the emergency occured shortly after takeoff they weren’t able to reach such an altitude. Fuel is regularly dumped in normal flights too to lessen the landing stress of certain aircrafts as some are not designed to land with much fuel in the tanks. But yes at high altitudes. ---
**Author:** ![WildaBeast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wildabeast/32/6_2.png) [@WildaBeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildaBeast)\ **Post date:** [January 14, 2020, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-dumps-fuel-on-elementary-school-playground/846428/10 "2020-01-14T23:39:57Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > IIRC Jet Fuel is oily? Similar to Diesel fuel? Jet fuel is different from gas? How caustic is it? It’s basically the same as kerosene. > [@scr4](#): > > In the article, it says the minimum altitude for dumping fuel is 2000 ft, and this plane was at 2375 ft. But it also says planes are supposed to dump fuel over designated unpopulated areas, which this likely was not. It appears the article was updated since I first opened it. I actually had to refresh the page to get the part about the minimum dumping altitude and that the plane was at 2375 ft. Which makes me wonder what exactly the nature of the emergency was. Was it really so dire that the couldn’t fly a few miles west and dump fuel over the ocean? The Delta spokesperson they quoted state the flight experienced “an engine issue”. If it was only a mechanical problem with one of the engines, any twin engined plane should be able to fly just fine on one engine for more than enough time to fly over the ocean before dumping fuel. I don’t think that’s the sort of emergency that requires returning to the airport literally ASAP, but maybe the actual pilots here could weigh in on that. But I’m thinking that either the actual emercency was more serious than we realize and the Delta spokesperson didn’t have all the information, or the pilots have some explaining to do. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-dumps-fuel-on-elementary-school-playground/846428/11 "2020-01-15T00:05:01Z")
> [@WildaBeast](#): > > Which makes me wonder what exactly the nature of the emergency was. Was it really so dire that the couldn’t fly a few miles west and dump fuel over the ocean? The Delta spokesperson they quoted state the flight experienced “an engine issue”. If it was only a mechanical problem with one of the engines, any twin engined plane should be able to fly just fine on one engine for more than enough time to fly over the ocean before dumping fuel. I don’t think that’s the sort of emergency that requires returning to the airport literally ASAP, but maybe the actual pilots here could weigh in on that. But I’m thinking that either the actual emercency was more serious than we realize and the Delta spokesperson didn’t have all the information, or the pilots have some explaining to do. Decisions made on the fly (Ha!) are made with information known at the time. I’m now seeing it described as a [compressor stall](https://twitter.com/TomPodolec). Further, [CBS](https://www.cbsnews.com/news/plane-jet-fuel-dumps-schools-near-lax-los-angeles-airport-live-stream-updates-2020-01-14/) is stating it was a flight to China (≈6500 miles, so a lot of fuel) that started dumping fuel at 8000’ over water. > [@CBS](#): > > Flight 89 was heading to Shanghai so it was loaded down with fuel and was well over the maximum safe landing weight. The pilots started dumping fuel at approx 8,000 feet over water, but then continued dumping fuel over land as it was approaching LAX. > > The danger of landing heavy is the landing gear could fail, the brakes could catch fire or you could not be able to stop in time. The plane landed without incident at LAX. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-dumps-fuel-on-elementary-school-playground/846428/12 "2020-01-15T00:13:06Z")
At least there weren’t any steel beams in the path of the jet fuel: those kids would’ve been _toast_. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-dumps-fuel-on-elementary-school-playground/846428/13 "2020-01-15T00:40:16Z")
> [@Ludovic](#): > > At least there weren’t any steel beams in the path of the jet fuel: those kids would’ve been _toast_. Are you kidding? Steel beams are like kryptonite to jet fuel. It would have turned to water on contact. ---
**Author:** ![Master\_Wang-Ka](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/master_wang-ka/32/3325_2.png) [@Master\_Wang-Ka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Master_Wang-Ka)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 1:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-dumps-fuel-on-elementary-school-playground/846428/14 "2020-01-15T01:54:56Z")
Just when I thought nuts with guns was as bad as it was going to get, NOW we start AERIAL attacks… ---
**Author:** ![bump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7c8e57/32.png) [@bump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bump)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-dumps-fuel-on-elementary-school-playground/846428/15 "2020-01-15T04:42:27Z")
> [@swampspruce](#): > > Jet fuel is essentially kerosene so yeah, oily, and can cause contact dermatitis. No fun in the eyes either. I had 20 years experience fuelling jets, and it’s not a fun bathtime experience at all… Diesel, kerosene and jet fuel(Jet-A/A1) are all very similar- diesel is somewhat less tightly refined than the other two, and jet fuel has an additive package, while kerosene is just straight distillate. ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 7:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-dumps-fuel-on-elementary-school-playground/846428/16 "2020-01-15T07:06:29Z")
We had a kid who slept in a sleeping bag that had already been dried and aired out after his kerosene spill. And he still got burned. Large burns. So I see this as partly over-responding, and partly appropriate responding. Kids skin is not as tough as adult skin. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-dumps-fuel-on-elementary-school-playground/846428/17 "2020-01-15T13:58:16Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Fuel is regularly dumped in normal flights too to lessen the landing stress of certain aircrafts as some are not designed to land with much fuel in the tanks. But yes at high altitudes. Fuel is NOT regularly dumped in normal flights. Fuel is only dumped (if dumping is possible) when the plane needs to land very soon, rather than flying to its intended destination. Many commercial aircraft are unable to dump fuel at all; it’s just not a built-in capability. > **[Fuel dumping](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fuel_dumping)** > > Fuel dumping (or a fuel jettison) is a procedure used by aircraft in certain emergency situations before a return to the airport shortly after takeoff, or before landing short of the intended destination (emergency landing) to reduce the aircraft's weight. > Aircraft have two major types of weight limits: the maximum takeoff weight and the maximum structural landing weight, with the maximum structural landing weight almost always being the lower of the two. This allows an aircraft on a normal, rou... > [@Wikipedia](#): > > FAR 25.1001 was enacted stating a jettison system was not required if the climb requirements of FAR 25.119 (Landing Climb) and FAR 25.121 (Approach Climb) could be met, assuming a 15-minute flight. In other words, for a go-around with full landing flaps and all engines operating, and at approach flap setting and one engine inoperative, respectively. > > Since most twin jet airliners can meet these requirements, most aircraft of this type such as the Boeing 737 (all models), the DC-9/MD80 and Boeing 717, the A320 family and various regional jet (“RJ”) aircraft do not have fuel dump systems installed. In the event of an emergency requiring a return to the departure airport, the aircraft circles nearby in order to consume fuel to get down to within the maximum structural landing weight limit, or, if the situation demands, simply lands overweight without delay. Modern aircraft are designed with possible overweight landings in mind, but this is not done except in cases of emergency, and various maintenance inspections are required afterwards. > > Long-range twin jets such as the Boeing 767 and the Airbus A300, A310, and A330 may or may not have fuel dump systems, depending upon how the aircraft was ordered, since on some aircraft they are a customer option. Three- and four-engine jets like the Lockheed L-1011, McDonnell Douglas DC-10 / MD-11, Boeing 747 and Airbus A340 usually have difficulty meeting the requirements of FAR 25.119 near maximum structural takeoff weight, thus most of those have jettison systems. A Boeing 757 has no fuel-dump capability as its maximum landing weight is similar to the maximum take-off weight. There are minimum altitude _recommendations_ for dumping fuel. IOW, if you are able, you dump fuel above that altitude. But since fuel dumping is typically only done when there’s a need to get the plane on the ground Very Very Soon, it’s not unheard of for fuel to be dumped below that recommended altitude, i.e. during your approach to the airport. Sucks that some people on the ground got sick, but given that the alternative was a high risk of a flaming crash-landing that might have killed many of the passengers on the plane, it seems like they made a reasonable decision. ---
**Author:** ![VOW](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/vow/32/3043_2.png) [@VOW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VOW)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-dumps-fuel-on-elementary-school-playground/846428/18 "2020-01-15T15:05:38Z")
I’m sure there were busloads of personal injury lawyers at the curb of the affected schools! News reports that 60 people were treated by the fire department on-scene, nobody was admitted to the hospital. The school district had cleaning teams overnight at the schools, scrubbing playground equipment, I guess. The schools are open today. Kids with breathing problems are gonna be sick for a long time to come. This isn’t over, oh no, not at all. ~VOW ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 3:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-dumps-fuel-on-elementary-school-playground/846428/19 "2020-01-15T15:24:27Z")
[ATC recording and radar track of the incident.](https://youtu.be/mIA90evz8gs) ATC asked if they need to go somewhere to dump fuel. Instead, A/C requested to be vectored straight to the runway. This is in contrast to the [similar incident](https://www.airlineratings.com/news/passenger-news/dramatic-video-philippine-airlines-firey-compressor-stall/), also involving a 777 with a compressor stall, where the pilot chose to land heavy rather than dumping fuel. ---
**Author:** ![Spiderman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spiderman/32/230_2.png) [@Spiderman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiderman)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2020, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-dumps-fuel-on-elementary-school-playground/846428/20 "2020-01-15T16:06:42Z")
> [@Terminus\_Est](#): > > [ATC recording and radar track of the incident.](https://youtu.be/mIA90evz8gs) ATC asked if they need to go somewhere to dump fuel. Instead, A/C requested to be vectored straight to the runway. To be fair he states in the notes that he’s missing a frequency. > [@VASAviation](#): > > 3 hours working non-stop editing this video to have it up as soon as possible. Unfortunately I was unable to pick some frequencies and communications but the most important exchanges were recorded. > > Delta has confirmed that the pilots dumped fuel as an emergency procedure to reduce weight. All video footage I have seen shows DAL89 dumping while on the localizer. Even though we didn’t hear them request fuel dump, they might have requested that on 124.9 which we didn’t happen to record - or maybe not and dumped by themselves. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plane-dumps-fuel-on-elementary-school-playground/846428.md?page=2)