Planescape: Torment discussion (major spoilers not hidden at all!)

[The_Mad_Hermit]

If you take the supplements issued for AD&D 2nd edition to be canon, the Nameless One can rise to power status, but he will not be able to stop the Blood War. Those who choose to aid him add their belief to his, and the battlefield he chooses will eventually migrate from the plane of Baator (lawful Evil) to the Outlands (neutral), as in the module Fires of Dis.

If I could get Neverwinter Nights running well enough, I would have more of my Sigil version done… but I have some of the areas from Torment converted.

[Kantalooppi]

But he wouldn’t care by then, since you got your punishment.

If I remember correctly, Vhailor says in the end that if Nameless One gets out of Hell, he’s still going to come after him.

[Mr_Tambo]

*Originally posted by HPL *
**Not to subtract from your (Good) points, but when the Nameless one arrived in Hell, did he remember anything? From what I’ve read, Most(all?) Petioners don’t remember their lives before they arrived wherever. Was that a blank look on the face of the nameless one when he arrived at the end, or just that of someone resigned to their fate? **

I often wonder about that. He does look sort of puzzled, doesn’t he? I think they deliberately left it open to interpretation. It makes sense to me that he’d lose his memory one more time, but it does seem kind of sad that he just forget all his friends just like that, especially Grace, who was worried about just that happening. Maybe a few fragments of memory were left behind; ‘What can change the nature of a man?’ seems to mean something to him.

*Originally posted by Kantalooppi *
If I remember correctly, Vhailor says in the end that if Nameless One gets out of Hell, he’s still going to come after him.

I think he says he’ll be coming after the Nameless One if he gets out of Hell before his time there is served.

[smiling_bandit]

True enough; Nameless is powerful. But remember, some of the demons in the lower planes have been living for longer than Nameless has! I doubt Nameless would really be all-powerful down there; sure he could hold his own against an abishai or two, but I doubt he can really impose his will on a group of greater Tanari or anything.

Oh, he is FAR more powerful than that. I mean, he is actually stronger than many Powers.

Not to subtract from your (Good) points, but when the Nameless one arrived in Hell, did he remember anything? From what I’ve read, Most(all?) Petioners don’t remember their lives before they arrived wherever. Was that a blank look on the face of the nameless one when he arrived at the end, or just that of someone resigned to their fate?

I think he did remember. Thing is, petitioners in the Hells don’t usually keep their forms - at least, not entirely. In Baator, at best you wind up as a soul shell, a twisted mockery of what you were (and not in the sense of TNO’s scars, either,) In fact, none of the Lower Planes do. So its probably he kept all his memories - which is an awful lot.

As to why he’s going to stick around: I don’t think there is anythign in the Planes that could keep him there. But think for a moment. TNO avoided that fate for millenia, ages upon ages. He cheated death to avoid it. And all it brought him was misery. Pain. Torment.

I think, that, evil or no, he needs to close that circle once and for all. Maybe he’s doing it for others, maybe for himself, but he one way or another, he wants to be free.

[robertliguori]

I don’t think there is anythign in the Planes that could keep him there.

How about the Planes themselves? But anyway, you make a good point about his ‘life’ and torment.

[Scupper]

*Originally posted by Windwalker *
**Also, I recall reading that gods in the multiverse (which I believe include both Forgotten realms and Planescape together) could not be killed except for by lack of worshippers. Their avatars (worldly incarnations) could be killed, but not the gods themselves, or so I thought.
**

My understanding is that this is not the case. In the Planescape module Dead Gods (possibly the best RPG adventure I’ve ever read)

Orcus, calling himself “Tenebrous,” kills several gods after learning what is basically an uber power word: kill. He kills, IIRC, Ilsensine (the god of the mind flayers), Primus (the god-ruler of the modrons), and some Egyptian god, among others.

Also, in the FR, during the “Time of Troubles,” Ao made all the gods mortal and several got killed before getting back to their former status, including Bhaal. That may not fit the bill precisely, but it does constitute a Power biting the dust, one way or another. Turn a Power mortal and kill him, you still killed a Power, no matter how you slice it.

Getting them to stay dead is another matter (Dead Gods, again, and BGII). But it doesn’t always depend on their cults dying out.

As for the whole “petitioners losing their memories” bit, it’s pretty clear that TNO does not become a petitioner (he doesn’t even really die). He just goes back to the Blood War grind.

[HPL]

*Originally posted by Scupper *
**
As for the whole “petitioners losing their memories” bit, it’s pretty clear that TNO does not become a petitioner (he doesn’t even really die). He just goes back to the Blood War grind. **

Okay, I wasn’t sure. Though I think he did die at the end and that his waking up in Baator after his disspearing act at the fortress was indictivtive of the fact he finally died a mortal death.

[ricksummon]

Also, I recall reading that gods in the multiverse (which I believe include both Forgotten realms and Planescape together) could not be killed except for by lack of worshippers. Their avatars (worldly incarnations) could be killed, but not the gods themselves, or so I thought.

My understanding is that this is not the case. In the Planescape module Dead Gods (possibly the best RPG adventure I’ve ever read)Orcus, calling himself “Tenebrous,” kills several gods after learning what is basically an uber power word: kill. He kills, IIRC, Ilsensine (the god of the mind flayers), Primus (the god-ruler of the modrons), and some Egyptian god, among others.

This isn’t quite correct.Orcus killed Primus first, then took control of the modron march so he could find out where his wand was. He then killed Maanzecorian (a mind flayer god, but secondary to Ilsensine), Bwimb (baron of the Plane of Ooze; though he probably wasn’t a god), Tomeri (goddess of wisdom and love, but I don’t know which pantheon), and Camaxtli (Aztec god of fate). After Orcus was finished with the modrons, a new Primus was created by promoting one of the secundus modrons.

[Ura-Maru]

I actually thought this was one of the best game endings ever. By accepting the long delayed punishment for his alpha life, (compounded significantly by all the suffering caused by trying to avoid it) and accepting his damnation, his torment is finally over. He’s in hell, but he’s not suffering anymore. Even left the Symbol of Torment on a rock.

The great thing about this is it works whether you’re good or evil. If you’re good, you’re finally atoning for your past. If you’re evil, you’ve become such a demon that eternal demon fighting is a sort of nirvana. At the very end, is he going to join the cloud of demons, or fight them?

Arguing with nothing but opinion to back me up, I’d say that ALL of the incarnations were parts of the same personality. He’s both a hero and a monster. The original incarnations’ quest for immortality in order to buy time to do enough good to save his soul was a selfish attempt to exploit the system to avoid the consequences of his actions, and as such only ended up causing more pain. And I’d argue that a good act doesn’t necessarily cancel out an evil one, especially if it’s only done for selfish reasons. Only by accepting responsibility for his past sins could he change his nature and find a true redemption. ‘What can change the nature of a man’ was the central question of the game, after all.

No, you’ve got it all wrong. It didn’t refer to the Nameless One at all. remeber the Order she gave: three of Evil of Good, and OF Neutrality.

That’s Ravel (evil, albeit not totally so), Trias (good, albeit with problems), and well, The Transcendant One (neutral, in the sense that it was only ionterested in its own private and self-contained ends; selfish but not cruel)

Ah, wasn’t that referring to Trias, (twisted good) Ravel, (twisted neutrality, though I suppose you could argue that TNO/TO serve here, too) and that demon guy (twisted evil) who was cursed to only do good? With ‘yourself in your full glory’ as foreshadowing that the head bad guy was yourself.

Nifty thought about Grace. Remember the blue Alu-Fiend who ran the pawnshop of the gods? Who insists Grace is still a Baator agent, playing a very subtle game to get your soul?

Funny where you end up, huh? And she never did let you read her diary . . .

Actually, I think Grace just had some plot threads that weren’t quite finished. Why does she freak out when Annah dies? And while the game implies in a few places she’s in love with TNO, it’s never really followed up on. (Annah does have a mini-lovescene if you’re nice to her)
Replaying:

While the very ending and the seven ‘key’ conversations (Dieonarra, Old Thief Guy, Ravel, Trias, Demon Guy, Triple Nameless One, Transcendent One) don’t really vary too much depending on your class or behavior, a lot of the minor quests do. What does affect the key conversations is mostly your stats (intelligence, charisma, and wisdom) and in some cases, subquests you’ve completed. And a lot of subquests can be solved in more than one way, though admittedly not quite as many as Fallout 2.

There’s also a ton of non-obvious quests and easter eggs to hunt for during replays. (A lot of them are mage-only, unfortunately) Did you find the Blind Archer from the original raid on the Temple of Shadows? (bit of a jerk, actually) Did you become a Godsman? A Sensate? An Anarchist? (I actually missed the mortuary Dieonarra conversation completely the first time I played)

For the record, there are three ways to deal with the Transcendent One, in order of desirability. Talk him into merging with you, force him into merging with you via blackmail, or kill him/yourself. (the last one has a separate movie-let from the first two)

–
‘You’re lucky. YOU CAN DIE!!’