# Plans for “free” college or “free” healthcare or anything of that sort **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 21, 2019, 9:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plans-for-free-college-or-free-healthcare-or-anything-of-that-sort/845199 "2019-12-21T21:14:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![doreen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/858c86/32.png) [@doreen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/doreen)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2019, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plans-for-free-college-or-free-healthcare-or-anything-of-that-sort/845199/41 "2019-12-24T14:10:47Z")
> [@Balthisar](#): > > I’m not sure about the other provinces, but [Ontario](https://www.hqontario.ca/System-Performance/utm_medium/Referral?utm_source=Ontario.ca&utm_campaign=WT%20Referral) has some pretty dismal waiting times for things that are pretty important. Because I don’t have USA data, I can’t claim an advantage, but looking at some things like “imaging,” I can’t imagine have a wait time at all. Anecdotally, I’ve met multiple Canadians who cross into Buffalo or Detroit for expedited services. > > I get it, our system is fucked up, albeit in in a different way. At least I can visit radiology same-day. Which waits are dismal? I’m looking at the CT numbers, and it says priority 1 patients ( emergency) are not included. The longest average is 37 days, for people with a target of 28 days. People with a target time of 2 days had an average wait time of 1 day. ``` You are very likely correct that people in the US with health insurance or the means to pay have no wait time* - but that contributes to cost. I don't regularly get MRIs- but I get a mammogram every year. No symptoms, it's a screening mammogram. And I can always get an appointment within a day or two. Which means that the center I go to has enough technicians and machines to have enough empty spaces in their schedule that they can book a non-emergency on less than two days notice. That costs money. ``` - And if you include the people with no insurance/poor insurance/can’t afford the copay/deductible who are not going to get that scan done until the ER does it because it has now _become_ an emergency (which could be months or years) , the average US wait would very possibly be longer than the longest Canadian wait. But somehow when Americans are talking about the lack of waiting time, they never include those people. ---
**Author:** ![Babale](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/babale/32/15666_2.png) [@Babale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Babale)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2019, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plans-for-free-college-or-free-healthcare-or-anything-of-that-sort/845199/42 "2019-12-24T14:52:23Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Those countries with free healthcare and all also dont have the open borders being proposed. This post is like a fractal of wrongness. Each individual part is wrong on it’s own, and the overall impact is even more wrong than the sum of it’s part. It brings a tear to my eye. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2019, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plans-for-free-college-or-free-healthcare-or-anything-of-that-sort/845199/43 "2019-12-24T14:59:39Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Those countries with free healthcare and all also dont have the open borders being proposed. Again, there’s no such thing as free healthcare. Sensible primary healthcare systems are free (or nearly free) _at the point of service_, and are funded principally out of general taxation, which guarantees that every taxpayer contributes to an implicit universal insurance pool. But it’s good to see that you’ve got your priorities straight. You are willing to embrace the appallingly bad U.S. healthcare system, which (below retirement age) is funded by what amounts to a massive payroll tax; a system that excludes many people without good jobs from the system entirely; a system that makes it difficult to change jobs, and makes things especially difficult for small businesses and self-employed entrepreneurs; and that costs at least twice as much as any other developed nation for worse health outcomes. You’re willing to embrace it rather than take the risk of the substantials reforms that could save everyone money and make everyone healthier, because that might allow some poor people or immigrants to _steal_ a bit of healthcare that they don’t deserve. And that’s the important thing. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2019, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plans-for-free-college-or-free-healthcare-or-anything-of-that-sort/845199/44 "2019-12-24T16:05:08Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Next time you want to buy a car, call me. I’ll find the car you want, and add 10% to the cost of it for my fees. > > Then if you complain that I’m charging you too much money and adding no value, I’ll remind you that you were once opposed to increasing efficiency at the cost of jobs. You have invented the car dealership. Dealerships allow manufacturers to sell more cars by outsourcing some marketing, inventory storage, and service. Sometimes middle men add value so eliminating them make the process less efficient. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2019, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plans-for-free-college-or-free-healthcare-or-anything-of-that-sort/845199/45 "2019-12-24T16:21:47Z")
> [@Hermitian](#): > > How do you figure? I just looked up two state colleges and about 20 something percent of their budget is from state appropriations. I just looked up tuition for my states flagship university. It’s 11k a year for in state students and 36k a year for out of state students. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2019, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plans-for-free-college-or-free-healthcare-or-anything-of-that-sort/845199/46 "2019-12-24T16:29:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > REAL Medicare for all can be paid for by a tax on business equal to about what they pay out in health premiums now. I mean REAL, not sanders crazy expensive plan. Doesn’t Medicare as it is have an actuarial value of around 70%? > **[Public money accounts for more than 70 percent of health care spending in...](https://newsroom.ucla.edu/releases/public-money-accounts-for-more-than-70-percent-of-health-care-spending-in-california)** > > UCLA researchers say that given the dominance of public spending in health care, a single-payer system might be more feasible than previously thought. According to that 16% of all medical costs are paid by employers with another 12% as lost tax revenue due to employers buying private insurance. Combined that’s 28% of medical spending. Around a trillion dollars. If you assume a Medicare buy in is $6000 a year on average and you add 180 million people to it then that’s 1.1 trillion dollars. Problem is I doubt most people with employer based insurance would accept it. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2019, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plans-for-free-college-or-free-healthcare-or-anything-of-that-sort/845199/47 "2019-12-24T16:34:54Z")
> [@Horatio\_Hellpop](#): > > All the (western) countries that have free or heavily subsidized healthcare and college–how many of them have the US footing the bill for their national defense? Is it possible that you can have a robust national defense or free healthcare/college, but not both? The 1970s called. Who are we protecting them from again? ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2019, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plans-for-free-college-or-free-healthcare-or-anything-of-that-sort/845199/48 "2019-12-24T16:40:02Z")
> [@Flyer](#): > > But you’re NOT cutting out middlemen with government-run healthcare. All you’re doing is replacing one set of middlemen (private corporations) with another set (government bureaucrats). > [@puddleglum](#): > > You have invented the car dealership. Dealerships allow manufacturers to sell more cars by outsourcing some marketing, inventory storage, and service. Sometimes middle men add value so eliminating them make the process less efficient. The issue here is in understanding where a model that’s applicable for _most_ types of private enterprise fails for healthcare. We all accept that we don’t run national defense like a normal private corporation, for obvious reasons. And _every country other than the U.S._ understands that there are equally obvious reasons why healthcare is also an exceptional case. For most types of insurance, it’s perfectly acceptable that private insurance companies should assess prospective risk, and in competiting with one another to do this they add value. And we accept that it’s reasonable for riskier drivers to pay more for car insurance, and that good drivers should not be forced to subsidize bad drivers. But apply the Rawlsian veil of ignorance to healthcare needs. Some random selection of people will be unlucky enough to get cancer, or need a transplant, or suffer from some chronic disease. If you _don’t know_ whether you will be born as one of those people, what kind of healthcare system would you choose? Sure, there are some aspects of health that are somewhat under our control, but many are not. And even when sickness is a result of poor lifestyle choices, we generally don’t believe that a civilized society should allow people to suffer and die for those choices. So the usual insurance model where private companies continuously assess people’s health prospects and exclude people who they know are likely to _need_ healthcare doesn’t work. We all know that - that’s why we all agree with legislation that stops insurance companies excluding people with pre-existing conditions, it’s why we won’t every allow genetic screening for this purpose. But efficient assessment of prospective risk is the entire _raison d’etre_ of private insurance in a free market economy. If we acknowledge that insurance companies should be barred from assessing prospective risk, then they have no sensible role in an efficient healthcare system at all. **They are middlemen that suck money out of the system but add no value.** The sensible model for healthcare is that we all effectively buy into the principle of health insurance with a Rawlsian veil of ignorance before we are born, before we know if our individual likely healthcare needs will be above or below average, as part of our social contract. We all commit to lifelong membership of a single insurance pool to fund healthcare. And the simplest way to form a universal mandatory insurance pool is to fund the primary healthcare system from general taxation. Again, this is similar to what we all accept is necessary for funding national defense; and it’s the approach taken by every country other than the U.S. Private corporations should certainly compete for the _provision_ of healthcare, just as they do in the defense industry. They just have no appropriate role in the _funding_ of healthcare. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2019, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plans-for-free-college-or-free-healthcare-or-anything-of-that-sort/845199/49 "2019-12-24T17:18:57Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Those countries with free healthcare and all also dont have the open borders being proposed. Do you think the Schengen Area is some type of erogenous zone? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2019, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plans-for-free-college-or-free-healthcare-or-anything-of-that-sort/845199/50 "2019-12-24T17:21:44Z")
> [@puddleglum](#): > > You have invented the car dealership. Dealerships allow manufacturers to sell more cars by outsourcing some marketing, inventory storage, and service. Sometimes middle men add value so eliminating them make the process less efficient. However, in many states, laws prohibit buying cars from anyone but a dealership. (I.e., one cannot legally buy direct from the manufacturer.) Are you in favor of such laws requiring the use of middlemen? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2019, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plans-for-free-college-or-free-healthcare-or-anything-of-that-sort/845199/51 "2019-12-24T17:32:51Z")
It’s not just national defence that isn’t left to the market. Governments provide a lot of services because the private market won’t, or shouldn’t, because the profit motive isn’t appropriate: Police. FireFighting. Roads. Education (K-12). We don’t call those “free” services. We pay for them with our taxes. But they are essential for our society and best handled by government. Health care in most countries is just another service that is better handled by government, because of moral/ethical issues, and because studies of health care economics show that the market efficiencies just don’t apply to health care decisions. ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2019, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plans-for-free-college-or-free-healthcare-or-anything-of-that-sort/845199/52 "2019-12-24T17:43:03Z")
> [@Horatio\_Hellpop](#): > > All the (western) countries that have free or heavily subsidized healthcare and college–how many of them have the US footing the bill for their national defense? Is it possible that you can have a robust national defense or free healthcare/college, but not both? > > I think “free” college is going to mean free _community_ college. The states will cover your first two years, then you’ll transfer to a four-year college and will be responsible for the final leg of your Bachelor’s degree and graduate school (with Pell grants and such). I don’t see any proposals that guarantee a free Ivy League education for everyone. The US spends about 4% of gdp on military. Most other western nations spend about 1-2%. The us spends 18% of gdp on health care, vs about 8-12% in other wealthy nations. I believe in the US we spend about 5-6% of gdp on education, mostly via public funds. No idea what other western nations spend but I assume it’s comparable. The real issue is how expensive our health care is. If our health care was as affordable as Europe we’d save 6-8% of gdp a year. Enough to balance the budget, offer free college to everyone, drastically increase spending on renewable energy and expand social security. The issue isn’t military spending. The US spends 1-2% more of gdp on education than other western nations but we spend 6-10% more of gdp on health care. And our health care is worse, it’s just more expensive. If we want to save costs we have to start there. Free public college would cost about 80 billion a year. If our health care was as cost efficient as Europe and Japan we’d save 1.5 trillion a year. ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2019, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plans-for-free-college-or-free-healthcare-or-anything-of-that-sort/845199/53 "2019-12-24T17:55:39Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > The issue here is in understanding where a model that’s applicable for _most_ types of private enterprise fails for healthcare. We all accept that we don’t run national defense like a normal private corporation, for obvious reasons. And _every country other than the U.S._ understands that there are equally obvious reasons why healthcare is also an exceptional case. > > For most types of insurance, it’s perfectly acceptable that private insurance companies should assess prospective risk, and in competiting with one another to do this they add value. And we accept that it’s reasonable for riskier drivers to pay more for car insurance, and that good drivers should not be forced to subsidize bad drivers. > > But apply the Rawlsian veil of ignorance to healthcare needs. Some random selection of people will be unlucky enough to get cancer, or need a transplant, or suffer from some chronic disease. If you _don’t know_ whether you will be born as one of those people, what kind of healthcare system would you choose? Sure, there are some aspects of health that are somewhat under our control, but many are not. And even when sickness is a result of poor lifestyle choices, we generally don’t believe that a civilized society should allow people to suffer and die for those choices. > > So the usual insurance model where private companies continuously assess people’s health prospects and exclude people who they know are likely to _need_ healthcare doesn’t work. We all know that - that’s why we all agree with legislation that stops insurance companies excluding people with pre-existing conditions, it’s why we won’t every allow genetic screening for this purpose. But efficient assessment of prospective risk is the entire _raison d’etre_ of private insurance in a free market economy. If we acknowledge that insurance companies should be barred from assessing prospective risk, then they have no sensible role in an efficient healthcare system at all. **They are middlemen that suck money out of the system but add no value.** > > The sensible model for healthcare is that we all effectively buy into the principle of health insurance with a Rawlsian veil of ignorance before we are born, before we know if our individual likely healthcare needs will be above or below average, as part of our social contract. We all commit to lifelong membership of a single insurance pool to fund healthcare. And the simplest way to form a universal mandatory insurance pool is to fund the primary healthcare system from general taxation. Again, this is similar to what we all accept is necessary for funding national defense; and it’s the approach taken by every country other than the U.S. > > Private corporations should certainly compete for the _provision_ of healthcare, just as they do in the defense industry. They just have no appropriate role in the _funding_ of healthcare. The US does not run health insurance like a normal private corporation. Every state has a list of rules that only apply to health insurance companies that is as long as your arm. Employer health insurance costs are given special tax advantages which is not done for any other type of insurance. Because of the rules actual health insurance is banned in most places, and what insurers provide is prepayment of health care costs. There are also many different types of funding for health insurance around the world. In some countries like Germany there is a combination of public and private insurance companies, in some like Switzerland there is compulsory private insurance. The most efficient health insurance system in the world, Singapore, is a mix of public and private insurance with mandatory HSAs. Insurers can provide more services than just risk pooling. They can also negotiate with providers and monitor fraud. Medicare fraud costs the government at least 90 billion a year, unless the program is changed ten making medicare for all would likely increase that to 180 to 600 billion per year. Every country has problems with their healthcare costs, for instance if Canada’s system was as efficient as South Korea’s system the could cut their spending in half and still live longer. The UK could cut their spending in almost half and live longer if their system was as efficient as Greece’s. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2019, 9:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plans-for-free-college-or-free-healthcare-or-anything-of-that-sort/845199/54 "2019-12-26T21:50:04Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > Again, there’s no such thing as free healthcare. Sensible primary healthcare systems are free (or nearly free) _at the point of service_, and are funded principally out of general taxation, which guarantees that every taxpayer contributes to an implicit universal insurance pool. > > But it’s good to see that you’ve got your priorities straight. You are willing to embrace the appallingly bad U.S. healthcare system, which (below retirement age) is funded by what amounts to a massive payroll tax; a system that excludes many people without good jobs from the system entirely; a system that makes it difficult to change jobs, and makes things especially difficult for small businesses and self-employed entrepreneurs; and that costs at least twice as much as any other developed nation for worse health outcomes. You’re willing to embrace it rather than take the risk of the substantials reforms that could save everyone money and make everyone healthier, because that might allow some poor people or immigrants to _steal_ a bit of healthcare that they don’t deserve. And that’s the important thing. I NEVER said I liked our current system. I am totally ok with a universal system like say Denmark has. Again though, we cant have that with the current immigrant situation. ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2019, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plans-for-free-college-or-free-healthcare-or-anything-of-that-sort/845199/55 "2019-12-26T22:17:16Z")
> [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I NEVER said I liked our current system. I am totally ok with a universal system like say Denmark has. > > Again though, we cant have that with the current immigrant situation. You’re talking about Mexicans, right? ---
**Author:** ![Grim\_Render](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a87d85/32.png) [@Grim\_Render](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grim_Render)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2019, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plans-for-free-college-or-free-healthcare-or-anything-of-that-sort/845199/56 "2019-12-27T03:08:22Z")
There is an interesting link between high US healthcare costs and high college costs. Lack of price elasticity. Items where the customer has little ability to reduce the purchase if the price is to high often lead to market failure. Medically necessary healthcare is hard to refuse on cost. And in the US, parents normally see college as the ticket to success or at lest the middle class for their children, I think. Hard to refuse too. In countries with free higher education, I think theres often more rewarding non-degree life paths. So the pressure on getting a degree is less, and fewer people need to go to college. Anyway… > [@Flyer](#): > > But you’re NOT cutting out middlemen with government-run healthcare. All you’re doing is replacing one set of middlemen (private corporations) with another set (government bureaucrats). You seem to think they are doing the same jobs. The problem with US bureaucracy is that it generates a lot of work and jobs that other systems just don’t do or do a minimal amount of. Billing. Gatekeeping. Negotiation with insurers. Credit-checking. Liaising. Insurance bureaucracy, claims written, received, accepted or rejected, appeals. In-network and out-of-network. There is a fantastic amount of bureaucracy in the US system that won’t be replaced with government bureaucracy because its unnecessary outside of the US health care ecosystem. > [@Horatio\_Hellpop](#): > > All the (western) countries that have free or heavily subsidized healthcare and college–how many of them have the US footing the bill for their national defense? Is it possible that you can have a robust national defense or free healthcare/college, but not both? No. First off because there seems to be no difference in the matter between nations that have had US military support and nations that haven’t. Sweden, Finland, Switzerland, doesn’t seem to be much of a difference between them and NATO countries. Second, because the savings on a UHC systems are so large they dwarf military spending. The US spends, what, 5% of GDP on defense? Versus 1-2 % from other western nations. And the US spends 18 % on healthcare versus 9-12 % for the other nations. Third because without the US spending in the pot, the other NATO nations or the EU still grossly outspends Russia. > [@Balthisar](#): > > I’m not sure about the other provinces, but [Ontario](https://www.hqontario.ca/System-Performance/utm_medium/Referral?utm_source=Ontario.ca&utm_campaign=WT%20Referral) has some pretty dismal waiting times for things that are pretty important. Because I don’t have USA data, I can’t claim an advantage, but looking at some things like “imaging,” I can’t imagine have a wait time at all. Anecdotally, I’ve met multiple Canadians who cross into Buffalo or Detroit for expedited services. > > I get it, our system is fucked up, albeit in in a different way. At least I can visit radiology same-day. Actually the number of Americans filching free healthcare on forged documentation in Canada, and getting prescriptions filled in Canada vastly outnumber the people going the other way. On the subject of waits, its a fairly complex subject. Waits to see a GP, waits to see a specialist, wait at the emergency room, waits for elective surgery, waits for urgent surgery are all different. I believe its an area where Canada does not do very well, but sitting next to a kid not doing to well does not automatically make the US good. I believe overall the US is bit above average in waits, but not in the top. I think Denmark and Switzerland are the top. Also, the uninsured and people putting off seeing a doctor due to worries about cost is not generally counted in US waits, except emergency room ones. If they were included, it is likely US waits would increase. > [@puddleglum](#): > > You have invented the car dealership. Dealerships allow manufacturers to sell more cars by outsourcing some marketing, inventory storage, and service. Sometimes middle men add value so eliminating them make the process less efficient. What kind of value would you say the US enormous overload of middlemen adds? > [@puddleglum](#): > > The most efficient health insurance system in the world, Singapore, is a mix of public and private insurance with mandatory HSAs. > > Every country has problems with their healthcare costs, for instance if Canada’s system was as efficient as South Korea’s system the could cut their spending in half and still live longer. The UK could cut their spending in almost half and live longer if their system was as efficient as Greece’s. What kind of definition for “Efficient” are you using here? Because it sounds like you are only looking at costs. > [@puddleglum](#): > > There is also a huge difference in costs, the average doctor in Canada makes less than half what the average doctor in the US makes. In order to get costs down to Canadian level the salaries of doctors in the US would need to be slashed drastically. Didn’t you in the post just above say to aim for a system like Switzerland? Where doctors make **more** than in the US? How much do you think doctors salaries matter in total anyway? > [@Urbanredneck](#): > > I NEVER said I liked our current system. I am totally ok with a universal system like say Denmark has. > > Again though, we cant have that with the current immigrant situation. Well, its a good thing you don’t have the immigration of the UHC european nations then, isn’t it? Nations like the UK, Germany, Belgium, Norway, Austria etc, etc… Oh and yes, Denmark. All of which have higher net migration than the US. ---
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2019, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plans-for-free-college-or-free-healthcare-or-anything-of-that-sort/845199/57 "2019-12-27T16:15:23Z")
> [@snfaulkner](#): > > > [@Flyer](#): > > > > But you’re NOT cutting out middlemen with government-run healthcare. All you’re doing is replacing one set of middlemen (private corporations) with another set (government bureaucrats). > > > > At least the private ones have a reasonable chance of actually being fired from their jobs if they’re not adding value somewhere to the equation. The government ones, not so much. > > Except governments are (supposed to be) looking out for your well being while corporations are definitely looking out for their bottom line. You must not be from around here, **snfaulkner**. “Government is always the problem” is one of the four key tenets of American political thought, along with “Gunz is good,” “Tiny racially homogeneous countries like Canada or France can adopt solutions that wouldn’t work in the Biggest and Bestest Country on Earth,” and “I got mine already. Eat S\*\*t, sucker!” Note also that it is the _private_ buying agent that will have _incentives_ both - to establish an _inflated price_ scale, to expand the _total_ cost of healthcare, and - to _deny_ expensive care, as possible in\* individual\* cases. > [@Urbanredneck](#): > > Those countries with free healthcare and all also dont have the open borders being proposed. I didn’t know where to begin on this. Fortunately I was immediately Ninja’ed by **Babale** ’s excellent effort: > [@Babale](#): > > This post is like a fractal of wrongness. Each individual part is wrong on it’s own, and the overall impact is even more wrong than the sum of it’s part. It brings a tear to my eye. ---
**Author:** ![Balthisar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/balthisar/32/2825_2.png) [@Balthisar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Balthisar)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2019, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plans-for-free-college-or-free-healthcare-or-anything-of-that-sort/845199/58 "2019-12-27T22:03:00Z")
> [@Grim\_Render](#): > > Actually the number of Americans filching free healthcare on forged documentation in Canada, and getting prescriptions filled in Canada vastly outnumber the people going the other way. Why does anyone need forged documentation to fill prescriptions? That’s covered by employer offered private health insurance, not provincial insurance, at least in Ontario. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2019, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plans-for-free-college-or-free-healthcare-or-anything-of-that-sort/845199/59 "2019-12-27T22:09:40Z")
The forged docs are necessary to filch healthcare. All of the provinces have been upgrading the healthcards, to make it harder for non-residents to get healthcare, pretending to be Canadian residents. Don’t need the health cards to get prescriptions. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2019, 2:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plans-for-free-college-or-free-healthcare-or-anything-of-that-sort/845199/60 "2019-12-28T02:19:40Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > You’re talking about Mexicans, right? Are you a racist? Actually look it up and Mexicans are just a part of the millions of all the immigrants pouring in that then must be housed, fed, provided healthcare for, be enrolled in schools, and provide employment for. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plans-for-free-college-or-free-healthcare-or-anything-of-that-sort/845199.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plans-for-free-college-or-free-healthcare-or-anything-of-that-sort/845199.md?page=4)