# Plastic Bag Death, How?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plastic-bag-death-how/607458
**Category:** Factual Questions
**Created:** [December 26, 2011, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plastic-bag-death-how/607458 "2011-12-26T20:57:04Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 4
### Author:  [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)
#### Post date: [January 19, 2022, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plastic-bag-death-how/607458/61 "2022-01-19T11:03:19Z")
The English obits I have seen say “left for his/her heavenly abode”, whatever the reason.
Hijack time. When I was in school I kid I knew slightly died after slipping in the bath and suffering a concussion and dying from blood loss.
20 years later, during some other work, I happened upon the police report. He…didn’t slip in the shower. ☹
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### Author:  [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)
#### Post date: [January 19, 2022, 1:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plastic-bag-death-how/607458/62 "2022-01-19T13:00:29Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#):
>
> I have done a lot of work in breweries, and CO2 in a large brewery is a very real danger. While CO2 in high concentrations is painful to breathe, you can’t rely on that painful sensation to reliably detect CO2 in dangerous concentrations.
>
> Someone I work with was working in an equipment pit and felt lightheaded, and fortunately was thinking clearly enough that he quickly got out of that location. If he had passed out, there’s a very good chance that he would have died. He never felt anything other than lightheaded, so there was no warning from any burning sensation or anything like that.
>
> CO2 is heavier than air so it tends to collect in low lying areas in breweries.
I can see my post from yesterday was ambiguous, so let me clarify my position.
Yes, inhaling CO2 at high concentrations is dangerous, potentially fatal. Many people have died from CO2 inhalation in a variety of circumstances. Industrial accidents are a common cause. Some years ago where I work, technicians were testing a CO2 fire suppression system, and it was triggered while one of them was in the room. he was incapacitated before he could escape the room. The other tech entered the room to drag him out, but he himself had to leave a couple of times for fresh air before he could finally drag the first guy to safety. Bottom line, they both almost died that day (and they both got fired).
My argument is regarding the claim that when breathing CO2, you will pass out and suffocate without noticing because **you won’t notice** the lack of oxygen - especially since high concentrations of CO2 can kill even without a lowered concentration of oxygen in inhaled air. Concentrations of just 7% can be fatal, even in the presence of adequate concentrations of oxygen. This was the major concern during the return flight of Apollo 13: they had plenty of oxygen for the trip home, but they needed to rig a CO2 scrubber to keep carbon dioxide concentrations under control.
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#):
>
> I have done a lot of work in breweries, and CO2 in a large brewery is a very real danger. While CO2 in high concentrations is painful to breathe, you can’t rely on that painful sensation to reliably detect CO2 in dangerous concentrations.
>
> Someone I work with was working in an equipment pit and felt lightheaded, and fortunately was thinking clearly enough that he quickly got out of that location. If he had passed out, there’s a very good chance that he would have died. He never felt anything other than lightheaded, so there was no warning from any burning sensation or anything like that.
The Wikipedia page on hypercapnia **[lists the major health effects of various ambient CO2 concentrations](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hypercapnia#Tolerance)**. The bottom of that table shows that a person can tolerate concentrations of around 6-7% for less than an hour before mental confusion starts to set in, suffering only “prominent respiratory stimulus” along the way. In other words, you just feel like you need to breathe harder, like you’re exercising. I can certainly see where a symptom like that might go unnoticed, or get brushed off as nothing to worry about (“I’m working hard, so of course I’m breathing hard”) until you get develop mental confusion strong enough to prevent self-rescue.
Very high inhaled CO2 concentrations may result in “almost instantaneous” unconsciousness, but “almost instantaneous” isn’t clearly defined. You will need at least enough time for hypercapnic blood to get from the lungs to the brain in order for unconsciousness to even be a possibility. IANAD, but based on **[estimates of time of useful consciousness for rapid decompression to extremely high altitude](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Time_of_useful_consciousness)**, I’d estimate about five seconds. That’s enough time for a lungful of very concentrated CO2 to cause you terrible pain, and it’d take a lot of willpower to keep a CO2-delivery mask on under those conditions.
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### Author:  [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2022, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plastic-bag-death-how/607458/63 "2022-02-10T17:50:58Z")
> [@Dallas\_Jones](#):
>
> bought a small tank of nitrous oxide, the stuff dentists use as happy gas, and bagged his head and went away probably painless.
I have to wonder about that last bit.
I have nitrous whenever I have major dental work. The feed there includes oxygen as well as the nitrous. On one occasion, I think the O2 may have been turned too low - because I kept feeling like I was not getting enough air. I wanted to reach up and pull the mask off my nose but could not manage to lift my arms. I DID manage to alternate breathing from my nose and my mouth. I don’t know if the problem was genuinely too little O2, or if somehow the CO2 I exhaled was building up in the system.
So if you’re going down with just breathing nitrous, it seems like there’s gonna be some panic going on as your body realizes it’s not getting enough oxygen (or you’ve got too much CO2 building up in the bag) - you just may not be able to un-zone enough to do anything about it.
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### Author:  [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)
#### Post date: [February 10, 2022, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plastic-bag-death-how/607458/64 "2022-02-10T20:38:06Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#):
>
> … seems like there’s gonna be some panic going on as your body realizes it’s not getting enough oxygen …
I’ve seen people fall down unconscious after a few pulls from a balloon in party settings. It doesn’t take long at all and no panic, though there wouldn’t have been oxygen blended in.
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### Author:  [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)
#### Post date: [February 17, 2022, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plastic-bag-death-how/607458/65 "2022-02-17T00:26:51Z")
> [@jnglmassiv](#):
>
> I’ve seen people fall down unconscious after a few pulls from a balloon in party settings. It doesn’t take long at all and no panic, though there wouldn’t have been oxygen blended in.
Good point - though in this scenario, they’ve either taken the huffs one after the other (no time for air hunger / panic to develop), or had a few breaths in between.
No plans to test the theory, in any case.
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### Author:  [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)
#### Post date: [February 17, 2022, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plastic-bag-death-how/607458/66 "2022-02-17T02:53:20Z")
> [@Mama\_Zappa](#):
>
> Good point - though in this scenario, they’ve either taken the huffs one after the other (no time for air hunger / panic to develop), or had a few breaths in between.
>
> No plans to test the theory, in any case.
Air hunger develops instantly if you inhale a lungful of the CO2-rich gas from a mostly-empty 2-liter soda bottle.
Air hunger is almost entirely related to CO2 partial pressure in arterial blood:
> **[Stimulus-response characteristics of CO2-induced air hunger in normal subjects...](https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/8822220/)**
>
> Hypercapnia evokes an uncomfortable sensation, termed 'air hunger'. We examined the relationship between PETCO2 and ratings of air hunger intensity under three conditions in 16 subjects: 1) mechanical ventilation with hyperoxic gas mixtures at fixed...
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### Author:  [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)
#### Post date: [February 17, 2022, 3:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plastic-bag-death-how/607458/67 "2022-02-17T03:15:33Z")
Even people correctly sitting down would pass out and their balloon would go shooting across the room.
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### Author:  [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)
#### Post date: [February 17, 2022, 4:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plastic-bag-death-how/607458/68 "2022-02-17T04:41:44Z")
I doubt use of nitrous oxide in “party” doses, eg balloons would cause oxygen starvation or the CO2 panic response.
I have tried chloroform, possibly the most hallucinogenic substance aside from DMT, but in a similar class to N20. There is no way from either that you can inhale enough before becoming incapacitated and unable to keep giving yourself more, unless a deliberate suicide attempt. And, given my experiences with both that is going to be a very unpleasant way to die; inhalent drugs tend to be fun for a short time, but very nasty after a sizeable dose. Would not recommend.
My friends and I refer to N2O as “the enemy” because while the short high is OK, the after effects are an immediate hangover, and that depletes the effect of what other, more expensive chemicals you may have in your system. Needless to say, I do not waste money on that any more.
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### Author:  [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)
#### Post date: [February 17, 2022, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plastic-bag-death-how/607458/69 "2022-02-17T11:58:06Z")
I finally realized nobody has yet mentioned Heaven’s Gate.
> **[Heaven's Gate (religious group)](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven's_Gate_(religious_group))**
>
> Pages for logged out editors learn more
>
> Heaven's Gate was an American new religious movement (often described as a cult), founded in 1974 and led by Bonnie Nettles (1927–1985) and Marshall Applewhite (1931–1997), known within the movement as Ti and Do, respectively. Ti and Do first met in 1972 and went on a journey of spiritual discovery, identifying themselves as the two witnesses of Revelation, attracting a following of several hundred people in the mid-1970s. In 1976, the group stopp...
In 1997, 39 people ate phenobarbital, drank vodka, and then tied plastic bags over their heads. The bags ensured they would eventually suffocate, and the drugs ensured they wouldn’t wake up to take the bags off because of air hunger. It worked.
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### Author:  [@Mama\_Zappa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mama_Zappa)
#### Post date: [February 17, 2022, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plastic-bag-death-how/607458/70 "2022-02-17T19:43:56Z")
> [@scudsucker](#):
>
> There is no way from either that you can inhale enough before becoming incapacitated and unable to keep giving yourself more, unless a deliberate suicide attempt. And, given my experiences with both that is going to be a very unpleasant way to die; inhalent drugs tend to be fun for a short time, but very nasty after a sizeable dose. Would not recommend.
>
> My friends and I refer to N2O as “the enemy” because while the short high is OK, the after effects are an immediate hangover,
IIRC, I once read an article that talked about anesthesia during childbirth: the mother was given a handheld mask to dispense whatever gas they used. She had to hold it to her face to inhale. When she was loopy enough from the gas, she would no longer be able to manage that trick. The assumption was that the pain was thus under good enough control, or she’d have been made more alert from the pain.
On the hangover: How does the “self admininistered for fun” dosage of nitrous compare with what one would get at a dentist’s office? I’ve never felt remotely hung over after having it there.
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### Author:  [@scudsucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scudsucker)
#### Post date: [February 18, 2022, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plastic-bag-death-how/607458/71 "2022-02-18T01:25:55Z")
I have never had it at the dentist, but the immediate after effects of huffing a baloon is an intense headache with some nausea; followed by some depression.
It makes you feel sober, which is unfortunate if you have take MDMA, for example!
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### Author:  [@paulmarkj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/paulmarkj)
#### Post date: [April 16, 2022, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plastic-bag-death-how/607458/72 "2022-04-16T09:58:37Z")
My shock is that the manager would be so open with this information!
If I were the manager I’d say something like ‘we are not sure at the moment’ or just ‘I can’t tell you’.
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### Author:  [@Pushkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pushkin)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2022, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plastic-bag-death-how/607458/73 "2022-04-21T20:55:10Z")
Well, the way Mum went on about plastic bags when we were kids, we honestly thought they’d fly across the room and smother us like a weather balloon on a Welsh beach.
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### Author:  [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)
#### Post date: [April 21, 2022, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plastic-bag-death-how/607458/74 "2022-04-21T21:30:06Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#):
>
> In 1997, 39 people ate phenobarbital, drank vodka, and then tied plastic bags over their heads. The bags ensured they would eventually suffocate, and the drugs ensured they wouldn’t wake up to take the bags off because of air hunger. It worked.
And the vodka was just for fun?
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### Author:  [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)
#### Post date: [April 22, 2022, 11:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plastic-bag-death-how/607458/75 "2022-04-22T23:23:08Z")
Plastic Bag Death’s cover of “Every Breath You Take” was not one of their better recordings.
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### Author:  [@Daithi\_Lacha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Daithi_Lacha)
#### Post date: [April 26, 2022, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plastic-bag-death-how/607458/76 "2022-04-26T18:10:06Z")
You must have felt like a Prisoner to that fear.
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### Author:  [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)
#### Post date: [May 9, 2022, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plastic-bag-death-how/607458/77 "2022-05-09T16:43:02Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#):
>
> CO2 is heavier than air so it tends to collect in low lying areas in breweries.
It sounds intuitive, but this simply is not true. I learnt it the hard way by placing CO2 sensors at different locations at a test facility.
Air does not stratify like liquids - unless the air column is kilometers high.
CO2 concentrations maybe high in pits because thats where the source of the leak is present.
> **[ChemDAQ | Gas Types](http://www.chemdaq.com/gas-types)**
>
> ChemDAQ gas monitoring systems are designed to detect and monitor sterilant gases, including Hydrogen Peroxide, Peracetic Acid and Ethylene Oxide.
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### Author:  [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)
#### Post date: [May 9, 2022, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plastic-bag-death-how/607458/78 "2022-05-09T18:28:02Z")
> [@am77494](#):
>
> It sounds intuitive, but this simply is not true. I learnt it the hard way by placing CO2 sensors at different locations at a test facility.
What kind of test facility?
Your linked article seems to assume that the gases are mixed to begin with. In a brewery, CO2 is produced during fermentation and is basically considered a hazard all throughout the brewing process. Instead of picturing CO2 mixed in with the air and stratifying, instead picture a CO2 leak causing a large cloud or pocket of CO2. Large breweries aren’t exactly well ventilated areas. They are enclosed buildings with large tanks, brew kettles, pipes, pumps, and all sorts of equipment all over the place. Walking through one is a bit like going through a maze. The pocket of CO2 isn’t going to quickly disperse, and, being heavier than air, it’s going to roll along the floor, possibly settling into a pit that is a pretty fair distance away from where the leak occurred.
How big of a risk is it? Equipment pits in breweries are not considered “confined spaces” per OSHA safety regulations, so you don’t need special permits and equipment to go into one, but they are a safety hazard and are specifically mentioned during CO2 safety training in breweries.
Like I said, one of my co-workers nearly passed out and died in an equipment pit in a brewery. Don’t tell me CO2 doesn’t collect in equipment pits in breweries because I know for certain that it can.
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### Author:  [@am77494](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/am77494)
#### Post date: [May 9, 2022, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plastic-bag-death-how/607458/79 "2022-05-09T18:44:34Z")
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#):
>
> The pocket of CO2 isn’t going to quickly disperse, and, being heavier than air, it’s going to roll along the floor, possibly settling into a pit that is a pretty fair distance away from where the leak occurred.
Yes - it will quickly disperse. The diffusion coefficient of CO2 compared to Water vapor is about 1.5 times - not a very large difference.
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#):
>
> Like I said, one of my co-workers nearly passed out and died in an equipment pit in a brewery. Don’t tell me CO2 doesn’t collect in equipment pits in breweries because I know for certain that it can.
It will collect and not disperse quick enough - if it is leaking in the pit. It will not flow from above the pit and collect into the pit. It has very little to do with density - but lot with diffusivity.
> [@engineer\_comp\_geek](#):
>
> What kind of test facility?
1. Pneumatic testing of Piping in large (50ft x 20 ft x 20ft) LNG Modules with CO2
Have also worked with pure CO2 in Urea and Methanol Plants, @100s of Metric tons per day.
Trust me, CO2 does not form puddles and separate out of air - otherwise it will be soooo very simple to remove all the CO2 buildup from air and avert Climate Change.
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### Author:  [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)
#### Post date: [May 10, 2022, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plastic-bag-death-how/607458/80 "2022-05-10T10:15:59Z")
> [@am77494](#):
>
> Air does not stratify like liquids - unless the air column is kilometers high.
> [@am77494](#):
>
> Trust me, CO2 does not form puddles and separate out of air -
I’m not seeing where anybody has asserted that a blend of CO2 and air will self-stratify into a layer of pure CO2 covered by pure air; we’re talking about a hazard due to the release of a stream of concentrated CO2. The rate of diffusion of CO2 and air into each other only matter in the context of the size of the gas pockets, the time scales involved, and whether the release is ongoing or transient.
> [@am77494](#):
>
> It will collect and not disperse quick enough - if it is leaking in the pit. It will not flow from above the pit and collect into the pit. It has very little to do with density - but lot with diffusivity.
Here is a demonstration in which a person literally pours CO2 out of a cup onto a flame:
[![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/QUnPUMSfnzE/maxresdefault.jpg "Baking Soda & Vinegar Reaction: "Pouring Out" a Flame?!?! EPIC SCIENCE EXPERIMENT") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUnPUMSfnzE&t=67)
This demonstrates that, yes, a concentrated stream of CO2 can flow from an elevated source and descend through the air as a bolus with minimal mixing. **[On a large enough scale, a bolus of CO2 can reach considerable speed as it descends and travel a long distance without significant mixing](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Nyos_disaster#Eruption_and_gas_release)**:
> Since carbon dioxide is 1.5 times the density of air, the cloud hugged the ground and moved down the valleys, where there were various villages. The mass was about 50 metres (160 ft) thick, and travelled downward at 20–50 kilometres per hour (12–31 mph; 5.6–13.9 m/s). For roughly 23 kilometres (14 mi), the gas cloud was concentrated enough to suffocate many people in their sleep in the villages of Nyos, Kam, Cha, and Subum.
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