# Players whose record was ruined by playing with an all time great
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/players-whose-record-was-ruined-by-playing-with-an-all-time-great/592475
**Category:** The Game Room
**Created:** [August 12, 2011, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/players-whose-record-was-ruined-by-playing-with-an-all-time-great/592475 "2011-08-12T17:12:33Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)
#### Post date: [August 13, 2011, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/players-whose-record-was-ruined-by-playing-with-an-all-time-great/592475/41 "2011-08-13T05:49:58Z")
I think the classic example would be Bill Ponsford. He would be talked about as a great (which he was) had he not played alongside Bradman.
Now he is all but forgotten.
---
### Author:  [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)
#### Post date: [August 13, 2011, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/players-whose-record-was-ruined-by-playing-with-an-all-time-great/592475/42 "2011-08-13T07:34:38Z")
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> (1) Had Ruth never been born Pipp would still have not won any more HR titles. From 1918 on there were always a number of players with more homers, not just Babe Ruth.
Fine. I will give you full credit here. Enjoy!
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> (2) Anyway, my point is just that Pipp’s career wasn’t hurt by playing with a great player. Gehrig’s arrival merely moved Pipp to Cincinnati, where he continued to play regularly.
Losing your job is a career damaging event, or nothing is a career
damaging event.
Furthermore, being traded from the 1926-27-28 pennant winner to
an also-ran certainly counts as a poor career development.
So: you get no credit here.
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> (3) Pipp would probably have played more in 1925 despite Gehrig’s arrival, but a few weeks after Gehrig got the starting job, Pipp was very badly hurt by a beanball.
I don’t think so.
Pipp was batting .242 with 3 HR when Gehrig replaced him on 6/2.
Gehrig then proceeded to bat .348 with 6 HR for the rest of the month,
while Pipp was 1 ( a single) for 6 as a sub before his 7/2 injury.
See gamelogs:
[Wally Pipp 1925 stats](http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?id=pippwa01&t=b&year=1925)
[Lou Gehrig 1925 stats](http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/event_hr.cgi?id=gehrilo01&t=b)
The following exhaustively researched article probably comes as close
as anything to providing a complete narrative:
[Snopes on Pipp and Gehrig](http://www.snopes.com/sports/baseball/pipp.asp)
So: you get no credit here either, and your grand average is 33.3% (100% for
paragraph (1) plus zero% for paragraph (2) plus zero% for paragraph (3)
divided by 3). That would be a good BA in baseball, but it’s not so hot for
our purposes.
---
### Author:  [@Nunzio\_Tavulari](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nunzio_Tavulari)
#### Post date: [August 13, 2011, 8:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/players-whose-record-was-ruined-by-playing-with-an-all-time-great/592475/43 "2011-08-13T08:57:10Z")
> [@astorian](#):
>
> Would Richard Petty and David Pearson fall into this category?
All but forgotten James Hylton would. Unlike Petty or Pearson, he never had a factory ride. Yet he finished 2nd in championship points in 1966 (pearson), 1967 and 1971 (petty, petty).
You could also make the argument that Dale Earnhardt would have become top dog had Jeff Gordon not foiled his chances for an 8th championship. Certainly true but nobody considers him a slouch for only tying Richard Petty’s seven championships.
Either Bobby or Al Unser could have been massive without AJ and Mario to contend with.
---
### Author:  [@Bearflag70](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bearflag70)
#### Post date: [August 13, 2011, 9:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/players-whose-record-was-ruined-by-playing-with-an-all-time-great/592475/44 "2011-08-13T09:24:22Z")
1970s Pittsburgh Steelers overshadowed Dallas Cowboys
1980s Denver Broncos \> Cleveland Browns
Joe Montana \> Steve Young
Roger Staubach \> Danny White
1990s Dallas Cowboys \> Green Bay Packers
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### Author:  [@DKW](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DKW)
#### Post date: [August 13, 2011, 10:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/players-whose-record-was-ruined-by-playing-with-an-all-time-great/592475/45 "2011-08-13T10:59:10Z")
Asahifuji was one of the greatest sumo wresters ever, the rare total package of athleticism, quickness, smarts, tenacity, and dedication…and competed at the same time as Chiyonofuji, Hokutoumi, and Onokuni. Take out ANY of the them, and Asahifuji makes yokozuna much sooner and wins _at least_ twice as many championships.
Incredibly, Ken Shamrock, a certifiable MMA legend, was bitten by this _twice_. Of course, everyone knows how Royce Grace scored a shocking submission over him in UFC 1; what’s less famous is how that one match kept him from winning 2 and 3 as well. Obsessed with beating Gracie, he overtrained for 2 and was injured, allowing Gracie to win it virtually unopposed. Then in 3, after Gracie withdrew due to hypoglycemia, Shamrock could’ve won the tournament easily, but by now he was so singleminded in his quest to crush Gracie that he withdrew as well. Without Gracie, he would’ve _blitzed_ through the first three tournaments, which would’ve made him such a huge star that he’d probably be willing to forego Pancrase and dominate UFC 4 as well. Instead, he never even got a runner-up. Later, he ran into Tito Ortiz, who proceeded to wipe the floor with him in the Octagon three times and make hash of his entire team in The Ultimate Fighter, and that was all she wrote for Ken Shamrock mattering a damn in UFC.
Alex Rodriguez made the very, very stupid mistake of starting a feud with Derek Jeter. (Tip: If you’re going to create a situation where you will be compared to a certain other player, choose a Devil Ray, or a Cub, or an Indian, or a Royal, y’know, someone who _has no chance of ever making it to the World Series_.) Predictably, Jeter overshadowed Rodriguez like a solar elipse, illustrating how Rodriguez was all about the money and zero championships and overrated and zero championships and a choker and zero championships and a jerk and zero championships and did I mention zero championships? Luckily for him, the Yankees finally took pity on him and made him one of their own, and he was integral to their 2009 championship, thereby escaping the label of The Guy Who Has Five Fewer Championships Than Derek Jeter forever and ever by the skin of his teeth.
Oh, while we’re on the subject of players who’ve been buried by the Jordan juggernaut (Jordernaut?), I have one more…Scottie Pippen. I did a search for stories about him some time back, and I seriously asked myself, does he get any credit _at all_ anymore?
---
### Author:  [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)
#### Post date: [August 13, 2011, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/players-whose-record-was-ruined-by-playing-with-an-all-time-great/592475/46 "2011-08-13T11:44:07Z")
> [@Cicero](#):
>
> I think the classic example would be Bill Ponsford. He would be talked about as a great (which he was) had he not played alongside Bradman.
>
> Now he is all but forgotten.
SO he would be the batting McGill.?
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### Author:  [@Cicero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cicero)
#### Post date: [August 13, 2011, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/players-whose-record-was-ruined-by-playing-with-an-all-time-great/592475/47 "2011-08-13T12:01:19Z")
Well, I would rate Ponsford a far better batsman than MacGill (slight correction there) was a bowler.
In first class cricket MacGill averaged about 30 per wicket, slightly worse than his test average.
Ponsford in his first class career averaged around 65 batting which is still astounding- and far better then when there were uncovered pitches.
Bill O’Reilly, still one of the all time greats as a bowler stated that he always gave himself a chance against Bradman, never against Ponsford. Of course, it has to be remembered that there was a Catholic/ Protestant schism in Australian cricket then so whether it was out of malice I have no idea.
To summarise, I believe MacGill would have been a good leg spinner for Australia and taken a lot of wickets. He was no where near as tight as Warne. I would say that without Warne, MacGill would be remembered as a very good leg spinner but not as great as perhaps O’Reilly or Mailey. Without Bradman, Ponsford would be remembered as the best batsman we had produced (leaving aside Trumper etc).
---
### Author:  [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)
#### Post date: [August 13, 2011, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/players-whose-record-was-ruined-by-playing-with-an-all-time-great/592475/48 "2011-08-13T14:44:21Z")
> [@colonial](#):
>
> Furthermore, being traded from the 1926-27-28 pennant winner to an also-ran certainly counts as a poor career development.
I suppose Pipp would have liked to be in the World Series, but he remained a regular major league starter. Had he remained in New York he wouldn’t have played regularly after 1925.
> [@](#):
>
> Pipp was batting .242 with 3 HR when Gehrig replaced him on 6/2.
> Gehrig then proceeded to bat .348 with 6 HR for the rest of the month,
> while Pipp was 1 ( a single) for 6 as a sub before his 7/2 injury.
He still would have played more than “not at all” in 1925 had he not been beaned. Pipp’s lack of playing time that season has very little to do with being replaced; he still wouldn’t have played,\* because he had a fractured skull.\* It doesn’t matter if Lou Gehrig was there or not.
Then after 1925, he continued to play regularly with the Reds.
Being traded is what gave Pipp more of a career. His career was NOT derailed by being a teammate of Lou Gehrig’s. At most you can say he lost about a month of playing time and didn’t get a few World Series at bats, hardly a career-ruining event.
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### Author:  [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)
#### Post date: [August 13, 2011, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/players-whose-record-was-ruined-by-playing-with-an-all-time-great/592475/49 "2011-08-13T14:50:50Z")
> [@Cicero](#):
>
> Well, I would rate Ponsford a far better batsman than MacGill (slight correction there) was a bowler.
>
> In first class cricket MacGill averaged about 30 per wicket, slightly worse than his test average.
>
> Ponsford in his first class career averaged around 65 batting which is still astounding- and far better then when there were uncovered pitches.
>
> Bill O’Reilly, still one of the all time greats as a bowler stated that he always gave himself a chance against Bradman, never against Ponsford. Of course, it has to be remembered that there was a Catholic/ Protestant schism in Australian cricket then so whether it was out of malice I have no idea.
> To summarise, I believe MacGill would have been a good leg spinner for Australia and taken a lot of wickets. He was no where near as tight as Warne. I would say that without Warne, MacGill would be remembered as a very good leg spinner but not as great as perhaps O’Reilly or Mailey. Without Bradman, Ponsford would be remembered as the best batsman we had produced (leaving aside Trumper etc).
I disagree that MacGill would have been thought of as a very good leg spinner. I think as a wicket taker he was better then Warne. And in most of the tests that they played together in, MacGill played better.
When Warne was banned for the 2003 season; MacGill topped the Test bowling lists for the year.
I think he would have been remembered as one of the best bowlers of his generation.
---
### Author:  [@DragonAsh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DragonAsh)
#### Post date: [August 13, 2011, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/players-whose-record-was-ruined-by-playing-with-an-all-time-great/592475/50 "2011-08-13T16:15:40Z")
Andy Roddick? ANDY FUCKING RODDICK? Are you serious?
To be even in the conversation he had to have been at least number one for a reasonably significant amount of time. He was # 1 for a grand total of…13 weeks. To put that in perspective, Kuerten was #1 for 43 weeks, and you’ll never here him discussed as one of the ‘best ever’. Only one Grand Slam, he’s never made it out of the 4th round at the French, he’s hurt all the time, he’s so one-dimensional he makes Stich look well-rounded…sorry, Federer ain’t the reason he hasn’t had a better career.
No, the tennis player that really should have been born about 10 years earlier: Agassi. Had he spent more of his career against Becker, Edberg, Lendl, Agassi would have doubled his GS total. Even playing against Sampras his entire career, he was #1 for 101 weeks and won 8 grand slams.
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### Author:  [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)
#### Post date: [August 13, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/players-whose-record-was-ruined-by-playing-with-an-all-time-great/592475/51 "2011-08-13T20:08:22Z")
Phil Mickelson has been a terrific golfer who was in Tigers shadow for over a decade.
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### Author:  [@colonial](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/colonial)
#### Post date: [August 13, 2011, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/players-whose-record-was-ruined-by-playing-with-an-all-time-great/592475/52 "2011-08-13T21:39:36Z")
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> I suppose Pipp would have liked to be in the World Series, but he remained a regular major league starter. Had he remained in New York he wouldn’t have played regularly after 1925.
He was never again a major league starter with the premier franchise
of the business. He also lost out on a very likely three years worth of
World Series player pay shares.
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> He still would have played more than “not at all” in 1925 had he not been beaned. Pipp’s lack of playing time that season has very little to do with being replaced; he still wouldn’t have played,\* because he had a fractured skull.\* It doesn’t matter if Lou Gehrig was there or not.
6AB in 27 games is close enough to nothing to count as nothing. Consider that
a regular could be expected to have over 100AB. And I knew about the fractured
skull before you started pressing the repeat button.
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> Then after 1925, he continued to play regularly with the Reds.
Addressed.
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> Being traded is what gave Pipp more of a career. His career was NOT derailed by being a teammate of Lou Gehrig’s. At most you can say he lost about a month of playing time…
Did you look at the game logs I posted a link to? Here is Gehrig’s again
in case you forgot:
[Lou Gehrig 1925 stats](http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/gl.cgi?id=gehrilo01&t=b&year=1925)
The data is unambigous and clinches the argument in Gehrig’s favor.
Recall that Pipp was batting .242 when he was benched and consider that
Gehrig went over .300 on 6/27 and stayed there until 10/2. All the while
he displayed much more power than Pipp ever had, finishing the season
with 20HR in the 113 games after 6/1.
> [@RickJay](#):
>
> and didn’t get a few World Series at bats, hardly a career-ruining event.
Addressed, but I thought I would get you some more numbers:
Players on the winning WS team for the years in question earned
the following shares (from the _Baseball Almanac_ website):
1926: $5,584.51
1927: $5,782.24
1928: $5,813.20
Although I cannot find Pipp’s salary for any year, his 1926 teammate
Hall of Famer Ed Roush, a .323 lifetime hitter (.339 in 1925) earned $19,000,
so I think it is a good bet that Pipp was $10,000 tops. Please do not
try to tell me that it is not form of career damage to miss out on a greater
than 55% addition to base pay for three years running.
---
### Author:  [@lisiate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lisiate)
#### Post date: [August 13, 2011, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/players-whose-record-was-ruined-by-playing-with-an-all-time-great/592475/53 "2011-08-13T22:00:52Z")
Throwing another example out here from rugby union. Were it not for Andrew Mehrtens, Carlos Spencer would have been _the_ greatest All Blacks first five throughout the 1990s. But Mehrtens superios kickinig game meant he got the nod from the selectors over King Carlos’ dynamic attacking play.
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### Author:  [@penultima\_thule](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/penultima_thule)
#### Post date: [August 13, 2011, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/players-whose-record-was-ruined-by-playing-with-an-all-time-great/592475/54 "2011-08-13T23:07:24Z")
> [@AK84](#):
>
> I disagree that MacGill would have been thought of as a very good leg spinner. I think as a wicket taker he was better then Warne. And in most of the tests that they played together in, MacGill played better.
>
> When Warne was banned for the 2003 season; MacGill topped the Test bowling lists for the year.
> I think he would have been remembered as one of the best bowlers of his generation.
Agree that McGill outbowled Warne whenever they played together, but equally that was on pitches with turn. You could bowl Warne first change before lunch on the first day.
Warne could be used as most teams have used finger spinners, to keep it tight whilst the quicks worked the other end. With Warne you got that pressure plus wicket taking. An interesting question is which of McGrath or Warne got more wickets due to the others prowess.
Conversely McGill would always prefer to buy wickets. The decision was taken that a leg spinner had to concede less than four runs per over to play, despite the fact that Warne is probably the only leg spinner ever who has been that frugal. The irony was the team wasn’t short on scoring runs through that period.
Arthur Morris who another who ecliped by Bradman’s shadow. Arthur was “up the other end making 196” when Bradman was dismissed for a duck in the 5th Test at The Oval 1948 and also he outscored Bradman in their 300 run partnership when they chased a then record 404 to win in on the last day of the 4th Test in that series.
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### Author:  [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)
#### Post date: [August 13, 2011, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/players-whose-record-was-ruined-by-playing-with-an-all-time-great/592475/55 "2011-08-13T23:27:32Z")
The trouble with MacGill was that he and Warne were both similar bowlers. It did not make sense to play them both most of the time.
If only one had been a big turner and the other had relied on flight and pace then the could both have played.
---
### Author:  [@Snickers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snickers)
#### Post date: [August 15, 2011, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/players-whose-record-was-ruined-by-playing-with-an-all-time-great/592475/56 "2011-08-15T16:15:29Z")
Not that he’s an all-time great or anything (really, he’s pretty far from one), but Daunte Culpepper had a banner year for any quarterback in the NFL in 2004. 4700 passing yards, 5100 passing + running yards, 39 touchdowns - he was an easy shoe-in for MVP.
Except for someone who _is_ easily an all-time great at quarterback. Peyton Manning. Manning threw for for 4500 yards, had an exceptional passer rating of 121.1, and tossed up a mind-bending 49 touchdown passes.
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### Author:  [@Cumbrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumbrian)
#### Post date: [August 15, 2011, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/players-whose-record-was-ruined-by-playing-with-an-all-time-great/592475/57 "2011-08-15T17:54:46Z")
> [@lisiate](#):
>
> Throwing another example out here from rugby union. Were it not for Andrew Mehrtens, Carlos Spencer would have been _the_ greatest All Blacks first five throughout the 1990s. But Mehrtens superios kickinig game meant he got the nod from the selectors over King Carlos’ dynamic attacking play.
Just to sweep up here, in my opinion, it wasn’t just that Mehrtens was a superior kicker. He was the superior rugby player full stop. Sure, he didn’t have the extravagent gifts and tricks that Carlos Spencer had - but he was a better team player, better at involving the rest of his back line, better at marshalling the game and better in wet weather (I’ve mentioned this elsewhere on the Dope but Mehrtens was number 10 for the greatest display of rugby I have ever seen - the 96 demolition of Australia in Wellington).
Carlos Spencer 10 years ago was Quade Cooper now. Quade Cooper isn’t going to win much at international level either.
---
### Author:  [@Death\_of\_Rats](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Death_of_Rats)
#### Post date: [August 15, 2011, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/players-whose-record-was-ruined-by-playing-with-an-all-time-great/592475/58 "2011-08-15T18:26:51Z")
> [@Dread\_Pirate\_Jimbo](#):
>
> Jordan played two guard almost exclusively while with da Bulls. Scottie Pippen was their small forward, with guys like Horace Grant in the power forward slot and BJ Armstrong and Steve Kerr at point guard. And for that matter, I seem to recall Clyde the Glide spending most of his time at shooting guard as well, but I could be misremembering that – I didn’t follow the Trail Blazers too closely during the height of his game. In any event, if he was playing three, he was also in the shadow of James Worthy, who may or may not have been deserving of casting that big a shadow, depending on your point of view.
You have to add Scottie Pippen to the people buried in Jordan’s shadow. Pippen would have been the star of that Bulls era and showed it during the '93-95 years when MJ retired, but instead ends up always being the guy who follows Jordan’s name when talking about the Bulls.
---
### Author:  [@The\_Other\_Waldo\_Pepper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Other_Waldo_Pepper)
#### Post date: [August 15, 2011, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/players-whose-record-was-ruined-by-playing-with-an-all-time-great/592475/59 "2011-08-15T18:35:37Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#):
>
> You have to add Scottie Pippen to the people buried in Jordan’s shadow. Pippen would have been the star of that Bulls era and showed it during the '93-95 years when MJ retired
Those are the years when they didn’t win, right? Bookended by Jordan-era three-peats?
---
### Author:  [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)
#### Post date: [August 15, 2011, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/players-whose-record-was-ruined-by-playing-with-an-all-time-great/592475/60 "2011-08-15T19:00:28Z")
Didn’t Pippen storm off the court prior to the game ending… in an NBA Conference Championship game?
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