He refused to go back into a game after a closing-seconds play was drawn up for Toni Kukoc, yes. It’s a blot on his record. All things considered I don’t know how much Pippen’s record was “ruined” by playing with Jordan. Jordan cast a very long shadow but it seems to me that do-everything guys like Pippen are often underappreciated anyway, and nothing could have been better for his profile than winning six championships. We know how many titles Jordan won without Pippen, after all. The Bulls didn’t win in the year-plus that Jordan was out, but they were in the mix and could have won it.
Assuming we’re talking about athletes in general, not just “players”…
Jan Ullrich won the Tour de France in 1997 but came in second five times. Three of those second place finishes were behind Lance Armstrong. Ullrich also had a fourth place and a third place finish at the tail end of his career in years that Armstrong won.
In basketball, David Robinson definitely was overshadowed by Shaquille O’Neal in general and the Lakers’ three championships in a row in which O’Neal won the Finals MVP each time. Robinson was on two championship teams but would have had a much better chance of more if not for O’Neal.
Don’t get me wrong, I thought (and still think) the All Black selectors made the right decision back then, but were it not for Mehrtens (70 tests) Spencer (35 tests)would have played at least twice as many tests and would have had a far more respected career. For my money Carter’s better than both - and I rank his game against the Lions in 2005 in Wellington the best I’ve ever seen by a first five.
As for the Cooper comparison - it’s more like Cooper is like Spencer in 1997 - a flashy prospect yet to prove himself, than Spencer in 2001 - a very good (perhaps great) player who isn’t quite as good as the reigning superstar.
Brad Park was the runner-up for the James Norris Trophy as the NHL’s top defenseman six times; once to Denis Potvin, and five times to some guy named Orr.
Someone hasn’t read the rest of the thread. These two arguments:
and
have basically no weight in this particular discussion, since the reason they’re both true is almost exclusively because of Roger Federer, whose non-existence is being posited in these hypotheticals.
Sans Federer, I think you can make a pretty good case (and several people have made one in this thread) that Roddick would have been the best, though not dominant, tennis player of the first half of the 2000s.
Let me also say that whenever these types of hypotheticals come up, I always feel bad for Andy Roddick. Until I remember that he gets to go home to Brooklyn Decker.
Olajuwon is the man. People who say the Rocket’s championships are tainted need to see how they fared against the Bulls in the regular season, and Jordan’s own quotes about centers.
ESPN take: ht tp://sports.espn.go.com/nba/columns/story?columnist=adande_ja&page=olajuwon-080905
slightly broken
Well I think you have it right there- MacGill was a big turner whereas Warne relied on flight, tightness and drift.
I don’t think they were similar apart from both being leggies.
I will defer to others’ superior cricketing knowledge, but it seems strange to describe the bowler of the “ball of the century” as “not a big turner” - OK, that was one freakish example, but it was hardly the only example of Warne getting a lot of turn on the ball. Aren’t wrist spinners (such as Warne) known for turning the ball much more than finger spinners, in general?
Warne did get a lot of turn. See 1999 World Cup final.
McGill got the bloody ball to turn at right angles.
Granted. The roster positions in that day were often mentioned by sportscasters with respect to Jordan and Drexler. I also conflate the small-forward and guard roles myself. How many guards fly 20’ through the air and power dunk over other forwards and centers? In Drexler’s case, he was a better forward, as a guard, than the rostered Blazer forwards.
Scottie’s name will always be in a conversation about the glory years of da Bulls, but rarely is the start of that discussion, agreed.
I remember watching the NBA all-star game the year Shaq was a rookie and started for the East against Robinson in the West. For most of the first quarter, the Admiral just made Shaq look bad, drawing him out to the top of the paint, facing him up and blowing past him like a giant pylon. It was awesome. Robinson really didn’t get the kind of credit he deserved. He was often accused of being soft, even though he drew as many or more fouls per game as any center in his era and he wasn’t what you might call a dynamic personality, but he also picked up triple-doubles (and a quadruple double) like they were going out of style and was consistently among the league leaders in scoring, rebounding, and blocked shots. The year after he won his MVP award, he missed most of the next season due to injury and the Spurs went from powerhouse to gawd-awful (resulting in them being able to draft a kid named Tim Duncan) – based on just how much of an impact losing him had on the team, I thought he should have won the MVP again for the year he missed. Playing at the same time as Olajuwan and O’Neal definitely cut into the amount of press Robinson should have gotten.
Paul Warfield was a great wide receiver in the late 1960s/early 1970s, first with Cleveland and then Miami. But with the ball control offense that Miami used to win two Super Bowls (hand it off to Csonka, Morris and Kiick), he caught under 30 passes a year. Great yards per reception figures, though. He made it to the Hall of Fame but in a different era and different team, he would be more celebrated.
I think Jeff Gordon’s record has probably been damaged by Jimmie Johnson. He would be close to or already would have tied Earnhardt and Petty in number of championships. Without Johnson there, Kenseth and Edwards would probably already have a couple of championships each too.
Tim Raines was one of the all-time great lead-off men, who had the misfortune of playing at the same time as the greatest all-time lead-off man, Rickey Henderson.
You could argue that point if Gordon had finished second to Johnson during the last five years, as it turns out, he was second only in 2007.
So, Gordon would have one more championship, and so would Kennseth in 2006,
Edwards for 2008, Mark Martin for 2009 and Hamlin for 2010.
On that note, back in the 1990’s, Mark Martin finished second to Earnhardt twice, so, you could argue that if Dale Sr. had not been so dominant back then, Martin might have one or two championships to his credit.
Tim Brown, Andre Reed, James Lofton and Cris Carter. They had to play wide receiver at the same time as the greatest player at any NFL position- Jerry Rice- was playing.
That “ball of the century” was freakish- yet Warne has said it wasn’t the best ball he ever bowled.
I will say again- Warne was never known as a huge spinner of the ball. He relied on accuracy and cunning.
I will quote from Cricinfo (On Warne):
At the end he was helped by his stockpile of straight balls: a zooter, slider, toppie and back-spinner, one that drifted in, one that sloped out, and another that didn’t budge. Yet he seldom got his wrong’un right and rarely landed his flipper. More than ever he relied on his two oldest friends: excruciating accuracy and an exquisite legbreak, except that he controlled the degree of spin - and mixed it - at will.
There have been plenty of spinners who have been able to get huge turn- normally at the expense of accuracy. Mailey and Fleetwood- Smith were good examples.
NM.
Well in his autobiography he says straight up that he balled well only when he was getting good turn.He recalls that that the better players of spin in his time such as Tendulkar and Saeed Anwar were at ease against him and indeed he only ever got either by getting good spin.
Well in his autobiography he says straight up that he balled well only when he was getting good turn.He recalls that that the better players of spin in his time such as Tendulkar and Saeed Anwar were at ease against him and indeed he only ever got either by getting good spin.
I could agree that he sometimes struggled with spin, but then see his best performances 1999 World Cup Final; the 1993 and 2005 Ashes series where he was getting prodigious turn as opposed to when he failed; West Indies 1999 and the 1996 World Cup final; flight and tightness did not help against Lara and De Silva on a roll.
Sadly I fear your discussion of the dark arts of slow bowling will be incomprehensible to most of the readers here.