# Playing chicken with the debt limit? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 21, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070 "2011-02-21T01:07:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 11, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/61 "2011-05-11T21:01:11Z")
Well, I noticed where he wants to take tax increases off the table in handling the deficit. Kinda shows you where their priorities lie. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [May 12, 2011, 3:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/62 "2011-05-12T03:48:45Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > [A conservative argument that we won’t default in May.](http://www.nationalreview.com/exchequer/266987/world-not-going-end-may) Correct. The US Treasury is already taking steps to delay the default until August. 🙂 My agency is already preparing for a potential default and government shut down. We’re already ordered to cut 20 percent from our existing budget (just passed by Congress) for the remaining fiscal year. We’re also being told to prioritize essential work projects (non-essential work will be stopped anyway). The tone right now is different than just a few weeks ago when there was possibility of a government shutdown because of the then budget issues. The difference is kinda like the budget shutdown threat was akin to saying, “The category one hurricane threat says think about stocking up on essentials maybe this weekend.” The tone now is, “It will be a cat 5 hurricane. We are in the direct path. Move inland now because you will not survive through it if you stay here.” We’ll see how this firms up in the next few weeks. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/63 "2011-05-13T00:20:11Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > The tone right now is different than just a few weeks ago when there was possibility of a government shutdown because of the then budget issues. The difference is kinda like the budget shutdown threat was akin to saying, “The category one hurricane threat says think about stocking up on essentials maybe this weekend.” The tone now is, “It will be a cat 5 hurricane. We are in the direct path. Move inland now because you will not survive through it if you stay here.” > > We’ll see how this firms up in the next few weeks. Is this a function of how your higher-ups see the chances of a ceiling vote passing? Or is it just an acknowledgment of how IF it doesn’t happen, it’ll be more serious? In other news: Hmm. [Two](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110512/ap_on_re_us/us_budget_debt) [Senators](http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/weigel/archive/2011/05/12/boehner-hints-at-entitlement-reform-in-exchange-for-debt-ceiling-vote.aspx) say they want cuts to Medicare in exchange for their debt ceiling vote. Will they really stand firm on this? Or are they just trying to show their constituents “hey, we did all we could” when they finally give in? ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/64 "2011-05-13T03:53:57Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Is this a function of how your higher-ups see the chances of a ceiling vote passing? Or is it just an acknowledgment of how IF it doesn’t happen, it’ll be more serious? Hard to tell. Lots of fuzziness coming internally from Washington. As I said, have to wait a bit for some of the fog to burn off. > [@](#): > > In other news: Hmm. [Two](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110512/ap_on_re_us/us_budget_debt) [Senators](http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/weigel/archive/2011/05/12/boehner-hints-at-entitlement-reform-in-exchange-for-debt-ceiling-vote.aspx) say they want cuts to Medicare in exchange for their debt ceiling vote. > > Will they really stand firm on this? Or are they just trying to show their constituents “hey, we did all we could” when they finally give in? There really is quite a bit of public grandstanding adding to the fog. Based on several other threads concerning the Tea Party, they shouldn’t have much of an impact. However, the perception of their alleged impact does have the Pubbies on edge. It doesn’t take much to create something from nothing. It may come down to those Dems and few Pubbies who see beyond the partisan self-interest. Still too fuzzy. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/65 "2011-05-13T20:45:42Z")
> [@Lord\_Feldon](#): > > IOW, he lied to the American people’s faces when he said he supported the deal reached at the White House last month. He was pleased “[to come to an agreement that will in fact cut spending and keep our government open.](http://www.reuters.com/article/2011/04/09/us-usa-budget-deal-boehner-idUSTRE7380GY20110409)” Until it came time to honor the agreement by actually coming up with funding for it. :rolleyes: He wants a second bite at the apple and its about time Obama realized that Republicans are not bargaining in good faith. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/66 "2011-05-13T20:47:09Z")
> [@Ravenman](#): > > Seems to me that this argument completely ignores the “as authorized by law” part of the 14th Amendment. If the Amendment stated that “the validity of the public debt shall not be questioned,” I’d say the author has a point. But there must be a reason that the phrase “as authorized by law” is in there, and the most logical conclusion would be that Congress must authorize the debt; it can’t go on constitutional autopilot. > > Section Five of the Amendment is also conspiciously not mentioned: The Congress shall have power to enforce, by appropriate legislation, the provisions of this article. In contrast to the author’s conclusion (“This action requires me to authorize borrowing that is not in conformity with the debt-limit statute. But no congressional statute can command or permit our government to violate the Constitution.”), it would seem Congress is very specifically put in charge of the question of regulating debt. I think the fact that interest on our national debt is such a large part of our budget, we are not talking about new debt, we are talking about existing debt. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/67 "2011-05-13T20:58:06Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > [A conservative argument that we won’t default in May.](http://www.nationalreview.com/exchequer/266987/world-not-going-end-may) > > Are the measures mentioned here the ones taking place mentioned a few posts earlier? > > (And the so far lone comment does bring up an issue I asked about before: whether the fact of default matters in the face of the possibility that we could get equally bad consequences by people THINKING we are.) No this is just the second leg of starving the beast. The notion is that we will HAVE to pay interest on the national debt, social security, medicare and stuff like that and that will force Democrats to fight for every dollar of non defense discretionary spending because cutting defense is off the table. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/68 "2011-05-13T21:01:40Z")
> [@Leaper](#): > > Is this a function of how your higher-ups see the chances of a ceiling vote passing? Or is it just an acknowledgment of how IF it doesn’t happen, it’ll be more serious? > > In other news: Hmm. [Two](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20110512/ap_on_re_us/us_budget_debt) [Senators](http://www.slate.com/blogs/blogs/weigel/archive/2011/05/12/boehner-hints-at-entitlement-reform-in-exchange-for-debt-ceiling-vote.aspx) say they want cuts to Medicare in exchange for their debt ceiling vote. > > Will they really stand firm on this? Or are they just trying to show their constituents “hey, we did all we could” when they finally give in? Entitlement reform without tax reform is putting ideology ahead of country. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 13, 2011, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/69 "2011-05-13T23:59:43Z")
OK, here’s what I wonder: what percentage of current Congresspeople of either party really genuinely think that default “won’t be all that bad” (or, if you’re cynical, are “controlled” by people who think that)? Because if it’s a small number, then it seems to me that default is pretty much the least likely option; it’ll all come down to who gets (or, perhaps, doesn’t get) “more” when the vote passes. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 10:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/70 "2011-05-14T10:45:54Z")
Suppose Democrats threatened to hold the debt ceiling hostage unless Republicans agreed to cancelling the Bush tax cuts and the oil company tax subsidies? ---
**Author:** ![SmartAlecCat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/67e7ee/32.png) [@SmartAlecCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAlecCat)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 11:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/71 "2011-05-14T11:38:34Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Suppose Democrats threatened to hold the debt ceiling hostage unless Republicans agreed to cancelling the Bush tax cuts and the oil company tax subsidies? Seems like they could get away with that, but it would take a spine and I think most of them lack that. I think if there was a hint of a chance of not increasing the debt ceiling, the moneyed class would be knocking on all the doors in Washington.. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/72 "2011-05-14T19:53:52Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > The analogy with “Game of chicken” breaks down. In _Chicken_, both drivers want to survive. In _Federal Bankruptcy_, many of the players would be delighted to see the Marxist gay-loving Federal Beast fail, and the price of gold soar. One would hope that most Republican Congressmen are sane, intelligent and sincere, but that may be wishful thinking. In the words of some guy in Indiana Jones, “My soul is prepared… is yours?” > [@](#): > > In other banana republics, the population would expect the Army to step in and restore sane governance, but many Americans don’t yet understand theirs has become a banana republic. I’d like to see the debt limit frozen - or anything else that will cause the dollar can collapse. It will spell the _immediate_ end of jobs leaving this country, and the billionaires who control this country will instantly lose all their power. With American troops rushing home to defend their families no currency in the world will be enough to get them to defend the billionaire holdings in America. In short there will be no Army to step in here. Only with the billionaires who control this country stripped of their wealth, can we hope to rebuild. This is exactly why the debt ceiling will be raised: the billionaire power brokers know it could lead to a dollar collapse, they’d lose control of America, and afterwards there wouldn’t likely be anywhere in the world they could hide from retribution. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 14, 2011, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/73 "2011-05-14T22:44:43Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > This is exactly why the debt ceiling will be raised: the billionaire power brokers know it could lead to a dollar collapse, they’d lose control of America, and afterwards there wouldn’t likely be anywhere in the world they could hide from retribution. An once the few hundred billionaires have been crucified, who do you suppose the mob will turn on next? Or do you expect once the economy is in wreckage and the plutocrats have been burned in the street, everybody will pull together and build an egalitarian society? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 4:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/74 "2011-05-15T04:01:38Z")
[One view of default.](http://www.davemanuel.com/what-would-happen-if-the-united-states-defaulted-on-its-debt-96/) And Congressman Phil Gingrey of Georgia is apparently one of those I mentioned earlier who doesn’t think default is a big deal (can’t find original source, sorry). Like I said, I’m sure there are SOME of those there, but I don’t know how numerous they are, or how influence-able they are. > [@SmartAlecCat](#): > > I think if there was a hint of a chance of not increasing the debt ceiling, the moneyed class would be knocking on all the doors in Washington.. [They are,](http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2011/05/13/chamber-urges-lawmakers-to-raise-debt-limit-expeditiously/) sorta. But then, I have no idea what’s going on behind the scenes, so this may be as little as a sharp reminder to make sure that they have the votes. But who knows. Mebbe global financial armageddon IS on the horizon. Then I’ll have a reason to be smug over all those here who don’t seem to care. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 4:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/75 "2011-05-15T04:46:24Z")
Everybody who is counting on Congress not doing something stupid is ignoring history. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/76 "2011-05-15T04:54:42Z")
One could argue that there’s a difference between stupid and END OF WESTERN CIVILIZATION AS WE KNOW IT stupid. But then, one could also reply “yeah? And?” So who out there is living in the woods preparing for the coming catastrophe? 🙂 ETA: I think I’ve asked this before, but I wonder if this whole fight will make the limit a MORE or LESS visible thing from here on in. Will whatever results make future Congresspeople more or less likely to try to attach conditions to raising the limit, or will it cause them to quietly drop mentioning it from here on in? ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/77 "2011-05-15T05:10:18Z")
Oh, a [YouTube clip from the other side of the argument,](http://www.youtube.com/v/N2TWARLhL8Q?version=3) for the sake of balance. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/78 "2011-05-15T11:23:45Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > An once the few hundred billionaires have been crucified, who do you suppose the mob will turn on next? Or do you expect once the economy is in wreckage and the plutocrats have been burned in the street, everybody will pull together and build an egalitarian society? We had a crash in 1929 and improvements were made. We’re not likely to plunge into a 200 year dark age. The alternative to overthrowing the rich is we eventually become like Mexico - a permanent mud-guns-and-dirt plutocracy. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [May 15, 2011, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/79 "2011-05-15T16:16:48Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > We had a crash in 1929 and improvements were made. We’re not likely to plunge into a 200 year dark age. We did not default on our debts in 1929. The crash of 1929 is fart in a whirlwind by comparision to the US defaulting on its foreign debt. You can’t comprehend the depth of devastion it is likley to cause. > [@](#): > > The alternative to overthrowing the rich is we eventually become like Mexico - a permanent mud-guns-and-dirt plutocracy. There are worse things, you know. Or, perhaps you don’t. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [May 16, 2011, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/80 "2011-05-16T23:04:47Z")
So I understand we hit the debt limit today, which has (apparently; I don’t know for sure) never happened before. Is this it? Is it too late now? Is there any point to talking about anything else besides this? Will everyone be pulling out of the dollar and shattering the world economy? Because, after all, even if we “pay up” afterwards, we’ve shown we’ll “almost” default, and could that be enough? What does this mean for who’ll “blink” first in this whole thing? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070.md?page=5)