# Playing chicken with the debt limit? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [February 21, 2011, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070 "2011-02-21T01:07:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/121 "2011-06-01T13:38:47Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > I get the impression the Republicans think the Democrats are so desperate to avoid debt-ceiling related Armageddon that they will accept any political cost to avoid it, or perhaps that the Dems will be blamed if financial Armageddon happens. I find both viewpoints puzzling. Anyone have any idea what the Republicans think they are up to? I mean, that vote to end Medicare went so well for them … I’ve been wondering over the past week or so what the effect would be if the Dems went to the Republicans with demands in order to raise the debt ceiling. Would probably make some great political theater. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/122 "2011-06-01T17:34:12Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Yes, but we could do that, couldn’t we? We could say, "Until the debt ceiling is raised, our first priority is towards financing debt payments from current revenues, our second is continuity of government operations and vital services, and only after those are done, does money go to entitlements and discretionary spending. So, medicare and social security is paid out of money from the medicare and social security trust funds. Those funds hold government securities. As radical as not paying benefits may be, its still not enough to avoid default if it means defaulting on the securities in those trust funds, at least I don’t think so. If you add defense and vital civilian government services, you simply cannot get there from here with a balanced budget without a tax increase. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/123 "2011-06-01T17:35:37Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > Nope. That would not suffice. It is necessary to collect more taxes. Just to be clear, I agree that our taxes are too low to support a government that we would find acceptable. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/124 "2011-06-01T17:37:05Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Congressional Democrats do have a track record of caving. You mean Senate “Democrats” and White House “Democrats” don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/125 "2011-06-01T17:39:50Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > I’ve been wondering over the past week or so what the effect would be if the Dems went to the Republicans with demands in order to raise the debt ceiling. Would probably make some great political theater. Adults do not go to their children with demands when their kids won’t eat their vegetables. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/126 "2011-06-01T22:42:17Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > I’ve been wondering over the past week or so what the effect would be if the Dems went to the Republicans with demands in order to raise the debt ceiling. Would probably make some great political theater. I agree, if they are going use brinksmanship to extort spending cuts, the Senate Democrats should demand tax increases on incomes over $250k. ---
**Author:** ![Sinaptics](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/278dde/32.png) [@Sinaptics](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sinaptics)\ **Post date:** [June 1, 2011, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/127 "2011-06-01T22:46:33Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Adults do not go to their children with demands when their kids won’t eat their vegetables. So we should “shove it down their throats?” 😉 My thinking is: Democrats realize that the debt limit must be raised. They aren’t trying to force concessions based on this fact. Maybe because they’re afraid it will look bad for them, I don’t know. I’m also not sure how must precedent there is for the current fight over raising the debt limit. Republicans, at least the sane ones which I hope are in the majority, also realize that the debt limit must be raised. This is evidenced by their repeatedly privately telling business that the debt limit WILL be raised. The Republicans are willing to make a fight out of it because their base is demanding it, among other reasons. It seems self-evident that Republicans are more beholden to business than Democrats. I know Democrats are also beholden, but the Republicans are far more likely to act in businesses interest, get more of the political contributions, etc. I think it would case quite a stir if the Democrats came back with we’re not raising the debt limit unless taxes get raised. That leaves business in the position of do they accept the higher taxes? Or do we default with even worse consequences. It would put the Republicans in a prickly position. Like I said. It would make great theater. However, I am in no way supporting this tactic as I think using our credit as a hostage is dangerously stupid. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 1:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/128 "2011-06-02T01:44:52Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > You mean Senate “Democrats” and White House “Democrats” don’t you? Two out of three branches, yes. The House being an exception. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/129 "2011-06-02T02:44:23Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Two out of three branches, yes. The House being an exception. The third branch is usually considered the judiciary but I hear you. ---
**Author:** ![gonzomax](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e8c25b/32.png) [@gonzomax](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gonzomax)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/130 "2011-06-02T16:58:53Z")
The Repubs did this vote in the night to get their followers excited. They did not vote during regular business hours but after the American market closed. It was another show with no substance and no impact. They were pandering to the Libertarians and far right wingers who include the financial arm of the party. But the next day the market reacted. They were unable to soothe it. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/131 "2011-06-02T19:27:38Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The Repubs did this vote in the night to get their followers excited. They did not vote during regular business hours but after the American market closed. It was another show with no substance and no impact. They were pandering to the Libertarians and far right wingers who include the financial arm of the party. > But the next day the market reacted. They were unable to soothe it. That’s because the markets are smarter than the Republicans. The Republicans think they can take things right to the brink and then pull back. The markets don’t believe the Republicans. Neither do the Democrats and neither do the centrists. Brinksmanship is a game that has a long history of backfiring. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/132 "2011-06-02T20:14:12Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > The Repubs did this vote in the night to get their followers excited. They did not vote during regular business hours but after the American market closed. It was another show with no substance and no impact. They were pandering to the Libertarians and far right wingers who include the financial arm of the party. > But the next day the market reacted. They were unable to soothe it. I just hope they keep this up indefinitely. Crazy or not I would rather the economic ship go down with all hands on board rather than throwing seniors and the poor overboard to keep it afloat. Either that or see it sink in a total rebellion. Let this serve as a warning to other nations that engaging in this kind of social Darwinism. Let me repeat: _No nation deserves to survive that puts the burden of an economic crisis on the poor and elderly._ ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/133 "2011-06-02T20:54:52Z")
Well I’d rather not go through economic Armageddon whether I deserve to or not. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/134 "2011-06-02T21:48:35Z")
> [@Sinaptics](#): > > Democrats realize that the debt limit must be raised. They aren’t trying to force concessions based on this fact. Maybe because they’re afraid it will look bad for them, I don’t know. I’m also not sure how must precedent there is for the current fight over raising the debt limit. So you thinki Democrats are either being cowards or adults? Recent history indicates that the former is more likely. > [@](#): > > Republicans, at least the sane ones which I hope are in the majority, also realize that the debt limit must be raised. This is evidenced by their repeatedly privately telling business that the debt limit WILL be raised. The Republicans are willing to make a fight out of it because their base is demanding it, among other reasons. So this whole thing is just a show and as long as the Democrats hold their ground, the Republicans will back off? OK, I’d like to see the Democrats put that to the test. the Republican strategy seems to be “keep raising and the Democrats will eventually fold” > [@](#): > > It seems self-evident that Republicans are more beholden to business than Democrats. I know Democrats are also beholden, but the Republicans are far more likely to act in businesses interest, get more of the political contributions, etc. > > I think it would case quite a stir if the Democrats came back with we’re not raising the debt limit unless taxes get raised. That leaves business in the position of do they accept the higher taxes? Or do we default with even worse consequences. It would put the Republicans in a prickly position. > > Like I said. It would make great theater. However, I am in no way supporting this tactic as I think using our credit as a hostage is dangerously stupid. And negotiating with hostage takers is monumentally stupid. When Obama gave up on the Bush tax cuts for the rich when the republicans took unemployment hostage, he set a bad precedent, one that needs to be reversed. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/135 "2011-06-02T21:48:45Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > I just hope they keep this up indefinitely. > > Crazy or not I would rather the economic ship go down with all hands on board rather than throwing seniors and the poor overboard to keep it afloat. Either that or see it sink in a total rebellion. > > Let this serve as a warning to other nations that engaging in this kind of social Darwinism. > > Let me repeat: _No nation deserves to survive that puts the burden of an economic crisis on the poor and elderly._ So, we have to destroy seniors and the poor in order to save them? ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/136 "2011-06-02T21:49:42Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > That’s because the markets are smarter than the Republicans. The Republicans think they can take things right to the brink and then pull back. The markets don’t believe the Republicans. Neither do the Democrats and neither do the centrists. Brinksmanship is a game that has a long history of backfiring. And when it backfires, how much do you want to bet the republicans are successfully able to frame the crisis as the Democrat’s fault. They have already started to frame this recession as being CAUSED by Obama. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/137 "2011-06-02T23:03:30Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > So, we have to destroy seniors and the poor in order to save them? In that situation everyone stands a strong chance of destruction: the rich who will face the torches and pitchforks, the already starving poor, the disappearing middle class, everyone. The rich won’t be able to rely on the Army because they’ll be off protecting their own families. So a collapse would put everyone’s skin in the game. This is an idea founded on history, because it is what led to FDR’s New Deal: he pulled that off to prevent a communist revolution in the U.S. The rich will support a new New Deal simply so they will not be put to the gallows. Which, mind you, has also happened before. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2011, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/138 "2011-06-02T23:04:31Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > And when it backfires, how much do you want to bet the republicans are successfully able to frame the crisis as the Democrat’s fault. They have already started to frame this recession as being CAUSED by Obama. And the Democrats lack the courage to get on TV and fight back against the Republicans’ blame game. That’s why they lose. ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/139 "2011-06-07T01:38:44Z")
Democrats and Republicans continue to jockey for point scoring positions. The media generally ignores the issue. Wall Street appears somewhat concerned. And Dopers nit pick and argue theory. The practically is my federal employer is beginning to gear up for a worst case scenario. Unofficially at the moment there is discussion of double-digit budgets cuts and a potential plan to shut down government services across the board. Nothing is firmed up yet, but there a definite signs the bunker mentality is taking hold. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2011, 7:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070/140 "2011-06-07T07:05:44Z")
> [@Duckster](#): > > Democrats and Republicans continue to jockey for point scoring positions. The media generally ignores the issue. Wall Street appears somewhat concerned. And Dopers nit pick and argue theory. > > The practically is my federal employer is beginning to gear up for a worst case scenario. Unofficially at the moment there is discussion of double-digit budgets cuts and a potential plan to shut down government services across the board. Nothing is firmed up yet, but there a definite signs the bunker mentality is taking hold. Arguably, your employer would be stupid not to prepare. But (to use a federal government metaphor) do you have any insight whether this is “Bin Laden Determined to Attack U.S.” style preparation, or whether it’s “what if we need to nuke Montreal” style preparation? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/playing-chicken-with-the-debt-limit/572070.md?page=8)