# Plea Bargaining Usurping the Role of the People in Criminal Justice **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 27, 2018, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230 "2018-04-27T17:11:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 2:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/61 "2018-05-01T02:29:40Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Those are two good examples, you’re right. Also, Paul Martineau, who’s most famous for having won in a tied election. And, apparently Marco Mendicino was at PPS, according to his Linkedin. I think there were a few in the 19th century too. But it’s hardly as common in the US. I think part of that is because, in the US, District Attorneys are elected, while that’s not true of Crown prosecutors. So the US position attracts those with political ambitions. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/62 "2018-05-01T03:26:57Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Are the People interested enough in participating that they are willing to fund 16 times as many state judges, prosecutors, and jurors, and 33 times as many federal ones? I suspect not. I’d think the answer is obvious. Put fewer people in prison. The US has 4.4 percent of the world’s population and about 22 percent of the world’s prisoners ([CITE](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/04/30/does-the-united-states-really-have-five-percent-of-worlds-population-and-one-quarter-of-the-worlds-prisoners/?utm_term=.12772c9c92ea)). This was not always the case. The prison population started to rise precipitously in the 70s/80s. I submit we can manage with much fewer prisoners. Start by legalizing drugs and releasing non-violent, low level drug users. Consider alternate sentences like community services for more non-violent offenses. The rest of the world manages with far fewer prisoners…even police states. Surely we can do the same. This will also have the advantage of taxpayers spending less money on prosecuting and keeping prisoners. Money that can certainly find good use elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/63 "2018-05-01T11:23:07Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Not that I necessarily disagree, but wouldn’t that mean that as a society we could expect more turnstile jumpers, littering, and people pissing on the sidewalk? Wouldn’t these types of offences just get ticketed and fined, rather than arrested? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/64 "2018-05-01T11:30:18Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Sure, death is much worse, but I think it would be wrong to have to serve 20 years in prison when someone right across the county line who does the same thing with the same criminal history only has to do 10 years. Or, to look at it differently, why should the good citizens of his county have to put up with him back on the streets after 10 years when the people of my county are rid of me for 20? Either way it’s not fair. I agree, but I think that’s partly due to a system of extremely decentralised prosecution authority, tied to electing prosecutors. That’s what I meant in the earlier post about the death penalty prosecutions: it’s a tremendous amount of power to vest in locally elected officials and it is almost guaranteed to produce markedly different results from county to county. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/65 "2018-05-01T12:43:34Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > The alternative, of course, is simply to arrest and charge fewer people. 90+% fewer? I doubt that also. No doubt we could reduce the number of arrests if we legalized marijuana. But not nearly enough to allow us to radically reduce or eliminate plea bargaining. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/66 "2018-05-01T13:05:22Z")
First of all, we don’t have a “justice system”, we have a “legal system”. You’ll rest easier at night if you just accept that fact. Plea bargaining appears to be a necessary evil. Without it, we would have a far greater backlog of cases awaiting trial than we have now, and what we have now is bad enough. Some people in Cook County jail have been awaiting trial for YEARS, not months. In addition, there is the “risk factor” in terms of getting a conviction. If a prosecutor feels that he might be vulnerable, a plea bargain is a safe compromise. As they say, “A bird in hand is worth three in the bush.” Finally, there is the factor of the time and money involved in trials, appeals, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/67 "2018-05-01T13:27:09Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > 90+% fewer? I doubt that also. > > No doubt we could reduce the number of arrests if we legalized marijuana. But not nearly enough to allow us to radically reduce or eliminate plea bargaining. We can probably get closer than you think. The US historically had an incarceration rate of about 100 per 100,000 population. That stayed pretty steady till 1970 when it shot up. Today we have an incarceration rate of around 716 per 100,000 people. That is an 86% increase. Other countries manage rates of 100-150 without much trouble today. ([CITE](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/04/30/does-the-united-states-really-have-five-percent-of-worlds-population-and-one-quarter-of-the-worlds-prisoners/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.5a115644ee31)) I wonder what happened in the 1970s to cause such a dramatic shift? Oh yeah, the war on drugs was started by Nixon in 1969. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/68 "2018-05-01T13:29:18Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > Plea bargaining appears to be a necessary evil. We have a constitutional right to a jury trial (6th amendment). Plea bargaining punishes people who try to exercise that right. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/69 "2018-05-01T14:03:48Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I wonder what happened in the 1970s to cause such a dramatic shift? Oh yeah, the war on drugs was started by Nixon in 1969. Crime rates in general, including violent crime, increased markedly during the 60s as well - it wasn’t just drugs. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/70 "2018-05-01T14:06:54Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Crime rates in general, including violent crime, increased markedly during the 60s as well - it wasn’t just drugs. According to [this](https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/fact-checker/files/2015/04/incarcerationgraphic.jpg) incarceration rates went down a little in the 60s. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/71 "2018-05-01T14:22:45Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > We have a constitutional right to a jury trial (6th amendment). Plea bargaining punishes people who try to exercise that right. Not if you’re charging people correctly. If the penalty for Grand Theft Elephant is 5 years, and I steal an elephant, and get convicted at trial, I get 5 years. 5 years is what I deserve for the crime. If you’re willing to give me reduced charges for pleading, that’s a reward, but you’re not punishing me for not pleading…I’m not getting punished any more than I should be for the crime I committed. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/72 "2018-05-01T14:33:21Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > Not that I necessarily disagree, but wouldn’t that mean that as a society we could expect more turnstile jumpers, littering, and people pissing on the sidewalk? We might. Though I’d wager that you’d rather walk the streets of Manhattan or Brooklyn in 2018 than in 1988, even though prosecution of those crimes has been totally deprioritized in 2018. > [@Shodan](#): > > 90+% fewer? I doubt that also. > > No doubt we could reduce the number of arrests if we legalized marijuana. But not nearly enough to allow us to radically reduce or eliminate plea bargaining. 90%? No, I don’t think so. To get that low, we would have to really radically restructure the way we think about crime and justice (which may not be a bad thing, but we’re not close to being there yet). But 50%? Sure. It’s a combination of bail reform, decriminalization, pre-trial diversion, and then investing in all the stuff that actually reduces crime–like more cops who engage in community policing, community anti-violence organizations, etc. We will probably never have crime, arrest, and incarceration rates like normal developed countries, because unlike them we are swimming in guns. But I don’t think there’s any other practical reason we cannot be more like the UK or Canada. > [@Shodan](#): > > Crime rates in general, including violent crime, increased markedly during the 60s as well - it wasn’t just drugs. This is a complicated question because obviously crime and incarceration are related in many ways. But one thing we know is that crime in the US has dropped dramatically since 1992, while mass incarceration continued to increase through at least the early 2000s if not later. And when you look at the statistical correlations across different jurisdictions, there just isn’t a big connection between crime rates and incarceration rates. Among criminologists, very few people argue that mass incarceration contributes significantly to crime drop. The big debates are over policing (mainly because police presence seems to prevent crime rather than because arrest and punishment deters it), and which forms of social spending reduce crime the most. We are already running this experiment though. We can all watch places like Philadelphia and NYC and judge whether what they’re doing is able to simultaneously reduce reliance on prisons and hold crime at historically low rates. I’m betting it will work. But we will see. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/73 "2018-05-01T14:48:17Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Not if you’re charging people correctly. If the penalty for Grand Theft Elephant is 5 years, and I steal an elephant, and get convicted at trial, I get 5 years. 5 years is what I deserve for the crime. If you’re willing to give me reduced charges for pleading, that’s a reward, but you’re not punishing me for not pleading…I’m not getting punished any more than I should be for the crime I committed. A semantic sleight of hand that I am sure comforts the judicial system. This is easily gamed. Make all felonies come with a 1,000 year sentence then dangle the “reward” of a mere 20 years in prison. We already see some things like that with three-strikes laws. Bottom line the system very strongly discourages you, by threat of harsh jail sentences, from exercising your constitutional rights. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/74 "2018-05-01T17:47:33Z")
Either five years is the appropriate punishment for Grand Theft Elephant or it isnt. If it isnt, change the sentencing for it. If it is, you don’t have reason to complain if that’s your sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/75 "2018-05-01T17:55:21Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Either five years is the appropriate punishment for Grand Theft Elephant or it isnt. If it isnt, change the sentencing for it. If it is, you don’t have reason to complain if that’s your sentence. I agree with the general sentiment here. But keep in mind that in most jurisdictions sentencing doesn’t work that way. Instead, what you have is a huge indeterminate range. You might get 6 mos. probation or you might get 10 years. It depends on stuff like criminal history and what judge you happen to draw. Flexibility is good. No two burglaries are the same. But the flexibility means prosecutors have tremendous power. Getting the maximum sentence may well be “appropriate punishment” in the sense that it does not exceed what the legislature said was permissible. But the legislature might also have had in mind very different circumstances for that maximum. So, in the end, the fix probably isn’t to sentencing ranges (at least so long as policymakers want the ability to hand down harsh sentences in extraordinary cases). Instead, the fix is having prosecutors who are more responsible with charging, pleading, and sentence recommendation decisions. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/76 "2018-05-01T17:59:34Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > I agree with the general sentiment here. But keep in mind that in most jurisdictions sentencing doesn’t work that way. Instead, what you have is a huge indeterminate range. You might get 6 mos. probation or you might get 10 years. It depends on stuff like criminal history and what judge you happen to draw. The other variable is the strength of the case. You might be charged with 6 burglaries, and 3 of them they have lock solid cases against you. So, you’re willing to plead guilty to 3, but not 6. How about 4? ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/77 "2018-05-01T18:02:21Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > Either five years is the appropriate punishment for Grand Theft Elephant or it isnt. If it isnt, change the sentencing for it. If it is, you don’t have reason to complain if that’s your sentence. If five years is appropriate, why should you be “rewarded” for pleading guilty? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/78 "2018-05-01T19:24:19Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > If five years is appropriate, why should you be “rewarded” for pleading guilty? I would guess because you are saving the state the time and hassle and cost to make a case against you. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 7:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/79 "2018-05-01T19:29:16Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > We have a constitutional right to a jury trial (6th amendment). Plea bargaining punishes people who try to exercise that right. Not true because you don’t have to accept a plea bargain. A plea bargain is a deal that both the defendant and the prosecutor agree upon. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 7:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/80 "2018-05-01T19:53:17Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > Not true because you don’t have to accept a plea bargain. A plea bargain is a deal that both the defendant and the prosecutor agree upon. They offer a deal that can be very dangerous to refuse: > [@](#): > > Cases like Florida v. Shane Guthrie help explain why. After Mr. Guthrie, 24, was arrested here last year, accused of beating his girlfriend and threatening her with a knife, the prosecutor offered him a deal for two years in prison plus probation. > > Mr. Guthrie rejected that, and a later offer of five years, because he believed that he was not guilty, his lawyer said. But the prosecutor’s response was severe: he filed a more serious charge that would mean life imprisonment if Mr. Guthrie is convicted later this year. > > SOURCE: [https://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/26/us/tough-sentences-help-prosecutors-push-for-plea-bargains.html](https://www.nytimes.com/2011/09/26/us/tough-sentences-help-prosecutors-push-for-plea-bargains.html) When your choice is between pleading guilty and getting two years in prison or going to trial and getting life in prison which would you choose (assume you know you are innocent)? Consider your choice if you have a public defender defending you who in some areas work on average [less than an hour per case.](https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/jun/17/poor-rely-public-defenders-too-overworked) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230.md?page=5)