# Plea Bargaining Usurping the Role of the People in Criminal Justice **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 27, 2018, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230 "2018-04-27T17:11:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/81 "2018-05-01T20:05:17Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I would guess because you are saving the state the time and hassle and cost to make a case against you. I agree. But let’s say that after accepting a plea bargain I get one year for elephant theft. Society is just fine and dandy with a known elephant thief like me getting one year. But if I go to trial and lose, I get five years. This looks an awful lot like a 4 year sentence for insisting on a jury trial. If there was a law that said you get 1 year for elephant theft, but if you insist on a jury trial, you get five years, the courts would have no hesitation in striking that law down as unconstitutional. So why can we do the exact same thing in practice and it is not only perfectly fine, but encouraged? ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/82 "2018-05-01T22:13:53Z")
> [@UltraVires](#): > > I agree. But let’s say that after accepting a plea bargain I get one year for elephant theft. Society is just fine and dandy with a known elephant thief like me getting one year. But if I go to trial and lose, I get five years. This looks an awful lot like a 4 year sentence for insisting on a jury trial. > > If there was a law that said you get 1 year for elephant theft, but if you insist on a jury trial, you get five years, the courts would have no hesitation in striking that law down as unconstitutional. So why can we do the exact same thing in practice and it is not only perfectly fine, but encouraged? I’m with you on this one. Of course the flip side would be no plea bargains so an accused would have zero reason to not request a trial. Even if they were caught on live TV with the world as a witness and the crime was committed in front of 100 people who were FBI agents on the scene and they had DNA evidence the perp has no reason to plead guilty. It is in their interest to delay if they can and remain out on bail. Not sure how we reconcile these two problems. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/83 "2018-05-01T23:48:35Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > \*\*For debate is whether the prevalence of plea deals harms justice, the balance of power between the prosecutor’s office and criminal defendants, and whether the standard for accepting plea deals should be greater than mere expedience. > \*\* > > Pleas are not in and of themselves bad. Some people genuinely want to plead guilty. For some people, a trial is a waste of resources. But a 96% rate, which is the US _average_, is a sign of a deeply sick and broken system. > > In a typical case, the plea offer is 25% or less of the maximum sentence a person would face at trial. Very often the disparity is much larger. Think about how confident you will have to be that your innocence will be proven (or that a jury will understand that you committed the lesser crime but not the greater one) in order to reject that offer. You’d have to be pretty confident. Far more confident than the vagaries of human juries and human justice warrant. Sadly in USA, the right to a fair trial is a nominal right rather then a real right. I do not know which system would be better. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [May 1, 2018, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/84 "2018-05-01T23:50:59Z")
> [@septimus](#): > > Yeah, we get that the “justice” system saves money by encouraging defendants, guilty or innocent, to plea bargain. In UK and Canada, plea bargaining is much rarer. In USA many rights are nominal rather then real. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/85 "2018-05-02T00:13:56Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I’d think the answer is obvious. Put fewer people in prison. > > The US has 4.4 percent of the world’s population and about 22 percent of the world’s prisoners ([CITE](https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/fact-checker/wp/2015/04/30/does-the-united-states-really-have-five-percent-of-worlds-population-and-one-quarter-of-the-worlds-prisoners/?utm_term=.12772c9c92ea)). This was not always the case. The prison population started to rise precipitously in the 70s/80s. > > I submit we can manage with much fewer prisoners. Start by legalizing drugs and releasing non-violent, low level drug users. Consider alternate sentences like community services for more non-violent offenses. > > The rest of the world manages with far fewer prisoners…even police states. Surely we can do the same. > > This will also have the advantage of taxpayers spending less money on prosecuting and keeping prisoners. Money that can certainly find good use elsewhere. Thank you – I agree 100%. USA can learn from Canada – they have much more humane Penal System, yet their crime rate is lower then in USA. USA has one of the worst Human Rights Records in the World. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/86 "2018-05-02T00:16:30Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > Thank you – I agree 100%. USA can learn from Canada – they have much more humane Penal System, yet their crime rate is lower then in USA. > > USA has one of the worst Human Rights Records in the World. That last part might be a bit of an exaggeration. ---
**Author:** ![CCitizen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4af34b/32.png) [@CCitizen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CCitizen)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/87 "2018-05-02T00:21:39Z")
> [@Procrustus](#): > > That last part might be a bit of an exaggeration. US History included Slavery, Genocide, War Crimes in bombing of Japan 1945, Korea 1950-1953, Southeast Asia 1965-1973. US Penal System is a link in a long chain of disregard for Human Rights. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 12:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/88 "2018-05-02T00:29:57Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > US History included Slavery, Genocide, War Crimes in bombing of Japan 1945, Korea 1950-1953, Southeast Asia 1965-1973. US Penal System is a link in a long chain of disregard for Human Rights. All true. I bet you could make similar lists for other countries. Canada, of course, excepted. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/89 "2018-05-02T01:09:09Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > …War Crimes in bombing of Japan 1945… It is a debate for another thread but that was not a war crime in the context of that conflict. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/90 "2018-05-02T01:14:14Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > In UK and Canada, plea bargaining is much rarer. Plea bargaining is common in Canada, to the point that the courts have worked out principles which govern when the courts should accept the results of a plea bargain, and that once made, a plea bargain is binding in law. See, for example, [Karla Homolka plea bargain controversy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karla_Homolka#Plea_bargain_controversy). ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/91 "2018-05-02T01:16:37Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > USA has one of the worst Human Rights Records in the World. I think that’s a ridiculous statement. The US has a strong, independent judiciary, rule of law, and extremely strong constitutional guarantees, both in the criminal justice system and in civil matters, such as equal protection and free speech. The fact that there may be some issues with one aspect of the system is no reason to suggest that the overall track record of the country is poor. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 1:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/92 "2018-05-02T01:22:55Z")
> [@CCitizen](#): > > US History included Slavery Yes it did. It also included one of the bloodiest wars in history up to that point to end slavery, followed by constitutional guarantees to eradicate it and establish a free and equal civil society. The process is ongoing, but the overall trend is towards racial equality and liberty, protected by law. That’s an admirable record of fixing past wrongs. And, while you’re fixated on Canada, we had slavery too. You could also chat with some First Nations about genocide to get their views on whether that has occurred in Canada. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/93 "2018-05-02T15:30:02Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Yes it did. It also included one of the bloodiest wars in history up to that point to end slavery, followed by constitutional guarantees to eradicate it and establish a free and equal civil society. The process is ongoing, but the overall trend is towards racial equality and liberty, protected by law. That’s an admirable record of fixing past wrongs. > > And, while you’re fixated on Canada, we had slavery too. You could also chat with some First Nations about genocide to get their views on whether that has occurred in Canada. Plus, poutine? That’s a crime against humanity right there. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/94 "2018-05-02T16:22:46Z")
Expecting prosecutors to be more fair and moral is a fool’s errand. You have to somehow enforce it. What you’ll need are incentives to do the right thing. We probably also need rules that would get you bad results. Granted, I don’t know enough to say what they would be. I’m just voicing the general opinion that just trying to elect the right people won’t work. The most fair people don’t want the responsibility. People who want power are the ones who get power, and wanting power is the problem. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/95 "2018-05-02T16:48:00Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Expecting prosecutors to be more fair and moral is a fool’s errand. You have to somehow enforce it. What you’ll need are incentives to do the right thing. We probably also need rules that would get you bad results. > > Granted, I don’t know enough to say what they would be. I’m just voicing the general opinion that just trying to elect the right people won’t work. The most fair people don’t want the responsibility. People who want power are the ones who get power, and wanting power is the problem. Two types of people that want power. There are those who want power to fulfill their own selfish desires, and there are those who want power to inflict good. The trick is to get them balanced properly, so that neither group does too much harm. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/96 "2018-05-02T17:12:03Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > So, in the end, the fix probably isn’t to sentencing ranges (at least so long as policymakers want the ability to hand down harsh sentences in extraordinary cases). Instead, the fix is having prosecutors who are more responsible with charging, pleading, and sentence recommendation decisions. I don’t think sentencing ranges is a fix by itself, but it has to be a component. Relying on the discretion of prosecutors who have an incentive to overcharge doesn’t seem viable to me. We want people to act magnanimously, but we should have systems in place to prevent and reduce the ability to act nefariously. Wide ranges of sentencing guidelines invites disparate treatment - it’s structural that crime A could get the minimum or maximum. Criminal history may be a factor in that spectrum, but so can wealth, race, etc. If we want things like criminal history to be factor, the sentencing guidelines should be fine tuned and more explicit so as to reduce divergent treatment. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/97 "2018-05-02T17:20:56Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > I don’t think sentencing ranges is a fix by itself, but it has to be a component. Relying on the discretion of prosecutors who have an incentive to overcharge doesn’t seem viable to me. We want people to act magnanimously, but we should have systems in place to prevent and reduce the ability to act nefariously. > > Wide ranges of sentencing guidelines invites disparate treatment - it’s structural that crime A could get the minimum or maximum. Criminal history may be a factor in that spectrum, but so can wealth, race, etc. If we want things like criminal history to be factor, the sentencing guidelines should be fine tuned and more explicit so as to reduce divergent treatment. Part of the problem is, is how exactly do you come up with the proper sentencing guidelines that are set up in such a way that people are discouraged from committing this crime, and this particular criminal is discouraged from committing crimes in the future. My “ideal” would be that people are sentenced until they are rehabilitated. There is no sense in keeping someone in jail who is ready to rejoin society as a productive member, and there is less sense in releasing someone from jail who is openly planning on returning to a life of crime because his time is up. If we move away from the idea that the justice system is supposed to be about punishing criminals, and realize that it is supposed to serve society in bringing order and fairness to the community, then the idea of punishment for punishment’s sake is less attractive. When you get to the point where people are trading in punishment for making “justice” easier to render to a larger number of people, I’m starting to think we’ve entirely missed the point. ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/98 "2018-05-02T17:25:02Z")
Well, I don’t agree with that either. The primary purpose of the justice system in my mind should be punishment. Rehabilitation is secondary. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 5:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/99 "2018-05-02T17:30:09Z")
> [@Bone](#): > > Well, I don’t agree with that either. The primary purpose of the justice system in my mind should be punishment. Rehabilitation is secondary. I’m not sure what “punishment” even means. I get deterrence. I get rehabilitation. And I get keeping people away from the rest of us for our protection. Trying to “punish” someone, I don’t get. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [May 2, 2018, 5:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230/100 "2018-05-02T17:41:01Z")
Outside of a primitive craving for revenge, what benefit do we derive? I can easily see the prominent application of punishment, is rehabilitation even on the list? Anywhere? We hate them, they know that, so they are improved? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/plea-bargaining-usurping-the-role-of-the-people-in-criminal-justice/813230.md?page=6)