# Please Bush. Get the hell out of Iraq ! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [March 30, 2004, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-bush-get-the-hell-out-of-iraq/237257 "2004-03-30T06:01:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 3:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-bush-get-the-hell-out-of-iraq/237257/41 "2004-03-31T15:11:10Z")
> [@UncleBeer](#): > > I don’t think I’d go that far. Maybe the sham of the century. But the century is just getting started. And while this in no way is meant to let Bush off the hook for his misguided exploits in Iraq, U.S. foreign policy is rife with examples of militaristic meddling. This book [_Ruses for War_](http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0879757671/qid=1080738979/sr=1-1/ref=sr_1_1/102-9879268-1571320?v=glance&s=books) outlines the many lies and deceits the U.S. has employed just since WWII as excuses for military action in countries with ideologies with which we don’t agree. And many where our interests are merely economical as well. Quite illuminating. I’ll check that book out, thanks. And I must say I agree with **Gobear** , a part of me is starting to say fuck it, pull out, and let them duke it out. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-bush-get-the-hell-out-of-iraq/237257/42 "2004-03-31T15:17:43Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > I have been of the opinion tha tthew US owes it to the Iraqi people to help rebuild their country and help them become a peaceful, prosperous nation, but the insurgents are succeeding in making me think it’s simply not in possible to help people who hate us. I’m thisclose to thinking we should just pull out, let them have their civil war, but the rational side keeps saying that we need to persevere and show the Iraqis there’s a way out of this morass of violence. I believe the chances of the US dream of a peaceful and pro-American, democratic Iraq are close to zero. Of course, many of us believed this _before_ the invasion and believed it was better not to go in. Now, the ones who supported the invasion say “don’t talk about the past; what’s done is done; we cannot leave now, so what is your answer?”. My answer is that those who created the mess find the answer. It is not my job to help them out of the mess when I warned them not to get into it. > [@](#): > > And how much longer are supposed to keep repeating to ourselves that Islam is The Religion of Peace[sup]TM[/sup]? What with the arrests of Muslims in London that apparently stopped a Madrid-style attack, the large number of American mosques led by extremist clerics–85 percent according to Rep. Peter King (R-NY), and the association that Muslims themselves make between violence and their religion, I’m just having a very hard time here trying to think of Muslims as peaceful people. I know that there have to be peaceful Muslims who wish to end the cycle of violence, but they seem to be speaking very quietly, if at all. When I see Iraqis mutilating the bodies of dead Westerners and shouting “Islam is great,” it’s difficult not to make the connection between the two. YMMV. Many Americans pray and thank their gods for American victories and this would be even more so were they fighting an invader on American soil. What’s your point? President Bush and other American officials pray to their gods to help America. Which presumably means killing America’s enemies. Every side has prayed to their god since the beginning of time. At any rate, whether Islam is a religion of peace or not is an academic exercise here. I wonder how much air time that tape of western corpses being dismembered and dragged through the streets of Fallujah will get. Because I was shocked by the violence and i wonder if the American people are really willing to continue in their belief that they are “liberating the Iraqis” and this is just a few bad ones. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-bush-get-the-hell-out-of-iraq/237257/43 "2004-03-31T15:26:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Many Americans pray and thank their gods for American victories and this would be even more so were they fighting an invader on American soil. What’s your point? President Bush and other American officials pray to their gods to help America. Which presumably means killing America’s enemies. Do we see American soldiers chopping up Iraqis and dancing with their severed body parts held aloft in the name of Jesus? Do we have the majority of American Christian clerics making official pronouncements that killing Iraqis, including women and children, is a duty to God? Do Americans hand out candy and celebrate wildly when disasters happen to Muslims? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-bush-get-the-hell-out-of-iraq/237257/44 "2004-03-31T15:29:04Z")
Keep in mind that we won’t do anything that could even _possibly_ make the terrorists look good (:rolleyes: ), even for the short term. Take Spain for example, who intends to pull out of Iraq and send more troops to Afghanistan. This is something we will never do, and that’s the problem. We need to forget appearances and do what’s right, but of course that won’t get you elected. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 3:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-bush-get-the-hell-out-of-iraq/237257/45 "2004-03-31T15:45:07Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Do we see American soldiers chopping up Iraqis and dancing with their severed body parts held aloft in the name of Jesus? Do we have the majority of American Christian clerics making official pronouncements that killing Iraqis, including women and children, is a duty to God? Do Americans hand out candy and celebrate wildly when disasters happen to Muslims? No, American forces “only” kill innocent Iraqis by the thousands. Maybe that makes America better in your eyes. In my eyes America would have been better if it had not invaded Iraq. I am not condoning the behavior of the Iraqis but they do it in order to be outrageous to the Americans and I say when you have killed thousands of them it is a bit hypocritical to complain that they have lost respect for you. When you invade a country you can expect this kind of thing. The fact that they are Muslim and the invaders are Christian is but a sidenote. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 5:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-bush-get-the-hell-out-of-iraq/237257/46 "2004-03-31T17:09:35Z")
[QUOTE=sailor] No, American forces “only” kill innocent Iraqis by the thousands. Maybe that makes America better in your eyes. /QUOTE] I’d be interested in a cite for this claim: Americans are killing innicent Iraqis “by the thousands”. Do you have one or are you just talking out of your ass as usual? ---
**Author:** ![Kiger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/b9e5f3/32.png) [@Kiger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiger)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 5:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-bush-get-the-hell-out-of-iraq/237257/47 "2004-03-31T17:15:50Z")
There are more pictures from [The Washington Post](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/photo/world/G38422-2004Mar31.html). I honestly have no hope for this world. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-bush-get-the-hell-out-of-iraq/237257/48 "2004-03-31T17:21:58Z")
Any other places I could find those pictures? I’m too lazy to register. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-bush-get-the-hell-out-of-iraq/237257/49 "2004-03-31T17:25:45Z")
**World Eater** those pictures are really graphic. I’m not sure if you really want to see black, charred, mutliated corpes being poked with sticks and hanged from a bridge by happy, grinning Iraqis. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-bush-get-the-hell-out-of-iraq/237257/50 "2004-03-31T17:26:04Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > I’d be interested in a cite for this claim: Americans are killing innicent Iraqis “by the thousands”. Do you have one or are you just talking out of your ass as usual? I am not sure what you are disputing. Do you dispute that the American forces in their invasion and occupation have killed thousands of Iraqis? Or are you saying all those killed were guilty? If so, of what? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-bush-get-the-hell-out-of-iraq/237257/51 "2004-03-31T17:28:50Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > I am not sure what you are disputing. Do you dispute that the American forces in their invasion and occupation have killed thousands of Iraqis? > > Or are you saying all those killed were guilty? If so, of what? He’s asking you for a cite from a reputable source that says the US forces have killed thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians. Do you have one? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-bush-get-the-hell-out-of-iraq/237257/52 "2004-03-31T17:50:36Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > He’s asking you for a cite from a reputable source that says the US forces have killed thousands of innocent Iraqi civilians. > > Do you have one? I might. I’d like to know what is being disputed, if I may. That will allow me to more precisely address whatever is being disputed. Is it that thousands of Iraquis have been killed by US forces? Or that those killed were not innocent? ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-bush-get-the-hell-out-of-iraq/237257/53 "2004-03-31T17:54:36Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > **World Eater** those pictures are really graphic. I’m not sure if you really want to see black, charred, mutliated corpes being poked with sticks and hanged from a bridge by happy, grinning Iraqis. Yeah I figured they would be pretty nasty, thanks for the heads up though. Now that I think about it, what is the point of seeing them? My imagination has already done the work, and I don’t have to register what it, yet. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-bush-get-the-hell-out-of-iraq/237257/54 "2004-03-31T17:56:37Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > I might. I’d like to know what is being disputed, if I may. That will allow me to more precisely address whatever is being disputed. > > Is it that thousands of Iraquis have been killed by US forces? Or that those killed were not innocent? Why not both? If you have cites that prove A) the US forces have killed thousands of Iraqis and B)that they were all innocent civilians, produce them or be dismissed as a crank. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-bush-get-the-hell-out-of-iraq/237257/55 "2004-03-31T18:01:28Z")
> [@gobear](#): > > Why not both? If you have cites that prove A) the US forces have killed thousands of Iraqis and B)that they were all innocent civilians, produce them or be dismissed as a crank. well, no, I am not going to produce anything until someone disputes it. So far it seems no one is up to disputing that thousands of innocent civilians have been killed by the invasion and occupation. If someone is willing to assert that it is not true then I _may_ look for cites. Then again, I might not. But I am not going to waste my time supporting something which, it seems, nobody here is disputing. ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-bush-get-the-hell-out-of-iraq/237257/56 "2004-03-31T18:07:26Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > well, no, I am not going to produce anything until someone disputes it. So far it seems no one is up to disputing that thousands of innocent civilians have been killed by the invasion and occupation. If someone is willing to assert that it is not true then I _may_ look for cites. Then again, I might not. But I am not going to waste my time supporting something which, it seems, nobody here is disputing. So **WeirdDave** has it right and you’re pulling this BS out of your ass. There’s no reason to take anything you say seriously if you cannot back it up with hard data. ---
**Author:** ![Weirddave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/919ad9/32.png) [@Weirddave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Weirddave)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-bush-get-the-hell-out-of-iraq/237257/57 "2004-03-31T18:13:05Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > well, no, I am not going to produce anything until someone disputes it. So far it seems no one is up to disputing that thousands of innocent civilians have been killed by the invasion and occupation. If someone is willing to assert that it is not true then I _may_ look for cites. Then again, I might not. But I am not going to waste my time supporting something which, it seems, nobody here is disputing. It seems pretty simple to me. You said “American forces “only” kill innocent Iraqis by the thousands”. That’s not soldiers in a war, or firing back at someone sniping at you, it’s executing someone for shoplifting or gunning down civilians. I am simply asking you to back up that claim. Can you? I really don’t think you can. ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-bush-get-the-hell-out-of-iraq/237257/58 "2004-03-31T18:20:20Z")
Is there any info on who these “civilians” were? Would it make a difference if these were some of the Christian missionaries who have been pouring into Iraq recently? Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-bush-get-the-hell-out-of-iraq/237257/59 "2004-03-31T18:26:13Z")
> [@Weirddave](#): > > It seems pretty simple to me. You said **“American forces “only” kill innocent Iraqis by the thousands”**. That’s not soldiers in a war, or firing back at someone sniping at you, it’s executing someone for shoplifting or gunning down civilians. I am simply asking you to back up that claim. Can you? I really don’t think you can. Um, can you please point me to my post where I said what I have highlited from your post? And so far I feel no need to provide any cites for assertions which nobody is willing to dispute. Some people are willing to play games but it seems no one is willing to come out and openly contradict the statement that thousands of innocent Iraqis have been killed (and now I add, thousands more wounded) by the American invasion and occupation. I think I know why nobody is contradicting it openly. It is fairly easy to provide cites supporting it and pretty impossible to deny it. So? Any takers? Any one willing to assert the American invasion and occupation of Iraq did not cost thousands of innocent Iraqi lives? ---
**Author:** ![gobear](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/8dc957/32.png) [@gobear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gobear)\ **Post date:** [March 31, 2004, 7:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-bush-get-the-hell-out-of-iraq/237257/60 "2004-03-31T19:01:09Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > So? Any takers? Any one willing to assert the American invasion and occupation of Iraq did not cost thousands of innocent Iraqi lives? I contradict thee! Thousands of innocent Iraqi lives have **not** been lost. Ok, you’ve been formally challenged, now put up or shut up. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-bush-get-the-hell-out-of-iraq/237257.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-bush-get-the-hell-out-of-iraq/237257.md?page=4)