# Please Debate The Merits Of This Article on Israel/Gaza **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [January 17, 2009, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-debate-the-merits-of-this-article-on-israel-gaza/481782 "2009-01-17T21:17:31Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-debate-the-merits-of-this-article-on-israel-gaza/481782/41 "2009-01-18T19:34:01Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > If you know the way to stop Hamas without civilan casualties, please share. No one thinks that Israel can wage a war without civilian casualties. I don’t believe Israel should be held to a higher standard than any other countrywhen it comes to war. Civilian casualties are unavoidable. I do think Israel has the capability to strike targets in a way that doesn’t seem careless and haphazard to the international community. If I were in charge, I’d just systematically assassinate Hamas leadership. I admit that I don’t know how feasible that is or whether that would reduce civilian casualties. But the mini, low-scale Holocaust that Israel inflicts to its Arab neighbors everytime it gets rattled by rocket-fire is simply unacceptable. - Honesty ---
**Author:** ![Honesty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/f04885/32.png) [@Honesty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Honesty)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-debate-the-merits-of-this-article-on-israel-gaza/481782/42 "2009-01-18T19:35:32Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > Wait. > > Do you honestly believe that the entire U.S.-Canada and U.S.-Mexico borders, several thousands of miles in all, are covered by hundreds, even thousands of anti-missile laser batteries _that none of us have ever heard of?_ > > Really? > > Sure about that? No. Where did you get that from? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-debate-the-merits-of-this-article-on-israel-gaza/481782/43 "2009-01-18T19:48:10Z")
Oh, for crying out loud. If Al Qaida wants to bomb sites in the US they don’t need to fire rockets from Mexico or Canada, it would be easier for them just to enter the US and place the bombs directly. As you say, the border is so porous that thousands of people sneak across every five minutes. A terrorist in Mexico could just walk across the border. The reason we haven’t had rocket attacks across the Mexican border is the same reason we haven’t had any Al Qaida attacks, period. There just aren’t that many Al Qaida terrorists. The Israel-Gaza border is a bit different. It doesn’t stretch across thousands of miles of uninabited wilderness. The reason Hamas fires rockets across the border is that unlike the US borders, the Israel-Gaza border is sealed tight. Anyone attempting to stroll across, like they do every day on the US-Mexico border, would be shot dead. But they can launch a rocket from a rooftop in Gaza and bug out within minutes. If they could figure out a better way to transport that 10 kilogram warhead to an Israeli target, I’m sure they would. They used to use cars, and suicide bombers. Since the Israelis sealed the border, those methods won’t work anymore. But they still want to bomb Israel, and the rockets are the best idea they have. And the United States certainly doesn’t have a missile defense system that could defeat these rockets. That’s just nonsense. Remember when we tried to use the Patriot against the Scuds back in Gulf War I? They only kind of worked, and each Patriot is a multi-million dollar munition, and we were using them against gigantic long-range Scuds. Each of these short-range Qassam rockets are homemade for a cost of a few hundred bucks. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 7:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-debate-the-merits-of-this-article-on-israel-gaza/481782/44 "2009-01-18T19:49:03Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I mean, there was a majority of Palestinians on the land that the Jews wanted to create Israel on. Yes, it’s clear what you mean. It’s also that what you mean is a fabricated bit of fiction designed to serve your narrative. Or as MidEast Web puts it: [ > [@](#): > > In practice, I am aware that the data on this page have been used to support various partisan claims. That is precisely the sort of abuse that this material is intended to fight. The major conclusion is “The nature of the data do not permit precise conclusions about the Arab population of Palestine in Ottoman and British times” Anyone who pretends otherwise is deliberately misleading you. ]([MidEast Web - Population of Palestine](http://www.mideastweb.org/palpop.htm)) Of course, I’d say that you’re deliberately selling an agenda which can’t be backed up by facts. The claim of deliberately misleading people is theirs, not mine. Best guess estimates, however, show that in several areas of the partition Jews would possibly have been the majority, including almost definitely the city of Jerusalem itself. But Double Standard Theater doesn’t talk about how allowing non-Jews to rule Jerusalem would have “necessitated” the Jews’ removal or “marginalization” and thus wasn’t honorable. > [@Honesty](#): > > You’ve stated that there is a gap in U.S missile defense and that the government cannot derail these rockets with any type of reliable efficacy. No, I’ve provided facts. You’re studiously and ‘honestly’ avoiding them. > [@Honesty](#): > > Like white phosphorous Cute hijack. Red Cross calls bullshit on your silly diversion. WP is a legal and valid smoke round for intentional combat. There’s also the fact that not only is there no evidence that Israel has been using cluster bombs in Gaza, but the fact that their troops would have had to advance through the alleged bomblets shows that the claim itself is absurd and _simply makes no sense._ Go figure. > [@Honesty](#): > > Thats because the Iron Dome system was designed to defend against missiles 4 kilometers away. If the system is ineffective against missiles shot from closer range, then Israel’s next move should be clear: Improve Iron Dome or build a system to accentuate the shield’s defensive capabilities. Didn’t even read the cites, eh? Skyguard was specifically tested as a means for countering short range missiles from Gaza. It failed miserably. Even with US technology. Don’t let the facts get in the way of a good ramble, eh? > [@Honesty](#): > > I am of the opinion that there is no gap in missile defense as FinnAgain purports otherwise the terrorists would have exploited it by now. Yet again, you are deliberately distorting what actually has happened. The MDA itself admits that there are gaps in its coverage. US anti-rocket technology itself has been proven to fail horribly when it comes to short range rockets. You are disingenuously pretending that this is merely my “claim”, while the hard data backs up the facts I am relating. Tellingly, you refuse to even _mention_ the actual data. Should I be surprised? > [@Honesty](#): > > I do think Israel has the capability to strike targets in a way that doesn’t seem careless and haphazard to the international community. Yes… because even when some of Israel’s harshest critics put the ratio at better than 1:1 for terrorists to civilians killed, it’s just so obviously haphazard. In short, provide any cites at all that the Israeli strikes have been careless or haphazard. None of your customary “But if the facts say rockets can’t be reliably intercepted, they must not be facts since AQ isn’t rocketing us from Candada!” Show cites that totally non-military targets have been deliberately hit at a rate that exceeds the standard we’d see due to the fog of war. > [@monstro](#): > > If terrorists in Miami were lobbing rockets at Fort Lauderdale and the local governments were ineffective at stopping them, what would the federal government do? Declare martial law and receive the full and immediate cooperation of every single branch of local government and law enforcement. Ya know, exactly opposite what would happen if Israel tried to police Hamas. Can we drop the silly analogies now? ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-debate-the-merits-of-this-article-on-israel-gaza/481782/45 "2009-01-18T19:51:52Z")
> [@Honesty](#): > > But the mini, low-scale Holocaust that Israel inflicts to its Arab neighbors… Nice. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-debate-the-merits-of-this-article-on-israel-gaza/481782/46 "2009-01-18T19:51:54Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > If terrorists in Miami were lobbing rockets at Fort Lauderdale and the local governments were ineffective at stopping them, what would the federal government do? Send in the FBI and arrest them, of course, or call out the national guard - much as was done when (domestic) terrorists struck in the US South in the '60s over civil rights. That’s a major difference between a war and a domestic incident - try sending a few cops into Gaza to arrest Hamas. They are the government there, have thousands of troops, etc. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-debate-the-merits-of-this-article-on-israel-gaza/481782/47 "2009-01-18T19:56:46Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Declare martial law and receive the full and immediate cooperation of every single branch of local government and law enforcement. Ya know, exactly opposite what would happen if Israel tried to police Hamas. Can you provide a cite that would indicate this being a likely outcome? ---
**Author:** ![DSeid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dseid/32/20194_2.png) [@DSeid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSeid)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-debate-the-merits-of-this-article-on-israel-gaza/481782/48 "2009-01-18T19:56:51Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > And yes, I know the US bombs the crap out of someone else’s grandmother’s retirement homes. That doesn’t justify the actions of Israel, Hamas, and anyone else. It just means we all suck. > > I’m so sick of this fighting and irrational hatred and nonsensical justifications and bullshit hand-wringing and ridiculous absolutism. None of it makes sense to me. I can’t even get the straight dope on the history of this conflict, because it’s so full of ideological bullshit from every direction. It all just makes me wish for a giant nuclear bomb to wipe everyone out. It makes me hate everyone and everything. I nominate this as the early leader for most ironic post of the year! As to your next post - > [@](#): > > If terrorists in Miami were lobbing rockets at Fort Lauderdale and the local governments were ineffective at stopping them, what would the federal government do? The Feds wouldn’t stand for it and would protect the citizens of Fort Laudedale. If that meant using force they would do so. What would happen do you think if the Feds didn’t do that, but instead just ignored it? And if the government of Miami were the ones lobbing the rockets at Fort Lauderdale? Do you think Fort Lauderdalians would just say, oh well? Or would they put down their tanning lotion and defend themselves, taking away the Miamians’ walkers if that’s what it took? Sorry, but it is a unacceptable argument to say that what is being done is unacceptable but have no acceptable alternative to offer. Anyone who has participated in many of these threads knows that I believe Israel has made an error in taking this action as far as it did, for many reasons. But there is no question that Israel needs to protect itself and that no response was not an option. And that there was no response that would not cause some civilian deaths. **treis** the relevancy is how much different individuals and entities accept as unadulterated fact the mythic narratives that the different sides have created for themselves. Including the myths that you are putting forth ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-debate-the-merits-of-this-article-on-israel-gaza/481782/49 "2009-01-18T20:08:43Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > The original intention was not to create an independent nation - that, in the beginning of Zionism, would have been considered hopelessly ambitious - but rather, to create a “homeland” within a larger, imperial structure (first Turkish, and then after WW1, British). > > It is a terrible anacronism to reason backwards from the creation of the state of Israel and assume that everything the Zionists did was part of their cunning plan to that end. The notion of a handful of Jewish refugees from Eastern Europe planning to take on the Turkish Empire is, well, absurd. I think you are mistaken: > [@](#): > > Herzl writes in his diary: “At Basle I founded the Jewish State. If I said this out loud today l would be greeted by universal laughter. In five years perhaps, and certainly in fifty years, everyone will perceive it.” Herzl is the founder of the World Zionist Organization, and Basle was their first meeting. It’s pretty clear that the goal from day 1 was a Jewish state, but masked that in order to avoid the ire of the powers in charge at the time. [link](http://www.jewishagency.org/JewishAgency/English/Jewish%2BEducation/Compelling%2BContent/Eye%2Bon%2BIsrael/120/Chapter%2BTwo%2BThe%2BSeven%2BYears%2Bof%2BHerzl.htm) ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 8:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-debate-the-merits-of-this-article-on-israel-gaza/481782/50 "2009-01-18T20:11:24Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > **treis** the relevancy is how much different individuals and entities accept as unadulterated fact the mythic narratives that the different sides have created for themselves. Including the myths that you are putting forth Which myth are you talking about here? The general narrative in my mind is that Jews immigrated into Palestine and created Israel over the objections of the preexisting population. I note that you didn’t address the other part of my post. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-debate-the-merits-of-this-article-on-israel-gaza/481782/51 "2009-01-18T20:23:04Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Can you provide a cite that would indicate this being a likely outcome? Wait, what? You’re honestly asking for a cite that there would be martial law involved if there were continuing terrorist attacks directed from American soil to American soil? They issued a “state of emergency”, which is pretty much identical to martial, law during Katrina when there were zero terrorist attacks. Hell, part of Austin was under police lockdown recently due to a shooting at a card game led to police involvement. What sort of a cite do you really want for the fact that if one US city was infested by terrorists who were attacking another, something would be done about it that would involve force if law enforcement (presumably already having tried the FBI) was powerless? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-debate-the-merits-of-this-article-on-israel-gaza/481782/52 "2009-01-18T20:28:33Z")
> [@treis](#): > > Which myth are you talking about here? The general narrative in my mind is that Jews immigrated into Palestine and created Israel over the objections of the preexisting population. No, it’s also made up of bogus assertions about an Arab majority that the Jews necessarily were going to displace or “marginalize”. And Jewish self determination is just horrible if there was an Arab majority, but there’s no problem with the Jewish majority of Jerusalem being ruled by non-Jews. Or, for that matter, any other district/city/town/region where Jews were the majority. And you’re in support of the vile racism that would have sought to keep Jews from legally buying property and achieving self determination when the regional sovereign fell… and you support that racist position because of fabricated non-facts. > [@treis](#): > > I note that you didn’t address the other part of my post. Much like you sailed by the fact that you’re inventing things when you claim that was “a majority of Palestinians on the land that the Jews wanted to create Israel on.” Having two standards sure is helpful to avoid consistency. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-debate-the-merits-of-this-article-on-israel-gaza/481782/53 "2009-01-18T20:28:50Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Send in the FBI and arrest them, of course, or call out the national guard - much as was done when (domestic) terrorists struck in the US South in the '60s over civil rights. > > That’s a major difference between a war and a domestic incident - try sending a few cops into Gaza to arrest Hamas. They are the government there, have thousands of troops, etc. Seems to me having a full-fledged war with Hamas, troops against troops, is preferable than what’s going on now. Let the civilians get out of the way and _then_ bombs away. Kill the fuckers that way. Hamas wants war–why not bring it to them in an real way? And Israel is definitely ready to obliterate them–so why not do it now when they’re asking for it? My problem is that with the borders being sealed, innocents are effectively trapped in a war zone, making the difference between Hamas and civilian, as far as the consequences of their actions go, very moot. Which then obscures the differences in moral highground between Hamas and Israel. But I’m starting to realize that morality is kind of an irrevalent topic when it comes to this matter. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-debate-the-merits-of-this-article-on-israel-gaza/481782/54 "2009-01-18T20:31:54Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Wait, what? > You’re honestly asking for a cite that there would be martial law involved if there were continuing terrorist attacks directed from American soil to American soil? > > They issued a “state of emergency”, which is pretty much identical to martial, law during Katrina when there were zero terrorist attacks. > Hell, part of Austin was under police lockdown recently due to a shooting at a card game led to police involvement. > > What sort of a cite do you really want for the fact that if one US city was infested by terrorists who were attacking another, something would be done about it that would involve force if law enforcement (presumably already having tried the FBI) was powerless? No, I’m asking for a cite showing if Israel took over Gaza and declared martial law, they wouldn’t be successful in stopping the rocket attacks. You made it sound like it was obvious this wouldn’t work, so I assume you have good reason to believe this. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-debate-the-merits-of-this-article-on-israel-gaza/481782/55 "2009-01-18T20:32:37Z")
> [@treis](#): > > I think you are mistaken: > > Herzl is the founder of the World Zionist Organization, and Basle was their first meeting. It’s pretty clear that the goal from day 1 was a Jewish state, but masked that in order to avoid the ire of the powers in charge at the time. > > [link](http://www.jewishagency.org/JewishAgency/English/Jewish%2BEducation/Compelling%2BContent/Eye%2Bon%2BIsrael/120/Chapter%2BTwo%2BThe%2BSeven%2BYears%2Bof%2BHerzl.htm) Heh, your own cite pretty well refutes this notion. Herzl was by no means even wedded to the notion of an “Israel” being located where it now is: > [@](#): > > But later Herzl seized on a British suggestion to settle the suffering East European Jews seeking to emigrate in Uganda (then a part of Kenya), Eastern Africa. Herzl was elated, especially since it came a short time after the Kishinev pogrom (the Ukraine, April 19, 1903), when there was an imminent need to solve the problem of emigrant Jews fleeing anti-Semitic Russia. Are you arguing that Herzl had a secret plan to overthrow British rule in _Uganda_? Funny, that plan did not pan out. Herzl himself said that he kept the statehood sentiment to himself, not because it was all part of his cunning plan, but because “If I said this out loud today l would be greeted by universal laughter”. In short, it was an absurdity - a sort of nationalist millenialism, unlikely to be taken seriously _by other Zionists_ (who were also not happy about his equally impractical “Uganda” scheme). The origins of Zionism were not in such dreams, but in providing a practical solution to the problem of East European pogroms, through some sort of settlement in a “homeland” of some kind. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-debate-the-merits-of-this-article-on-israel-gaza/481782/56 "2009-01-18T20:38:54Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > If terrorists in Miami were lobbing rockets at Fort Lauderdale and the local governments were ineffective at stopping them, what would the federal government do? Maybe something like what they did when South Carolina lobbed rockets at Fort Sumter? ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-debate-the-merits-of-this-article-on-israel-gaza/481782/57 "2009-01-18T20:45:02Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Seems to me having a full-fledged war with Hamas, troops against troops, is preferable than what’s going on now. Sure, and Hamas will stop using human shields and agree to these pitched battles, right? > [@monstro](#): > > No, I’m asking for a cite showing if Israel took over Gaza and declared martial law, they wouldn’t be successful in stopping the rocket attacks. You want a cite that if Israel put boots on the ground, they’d have to fight and there would still be rocket attacks? Exactly what’s happening right now? I’m not even sure what you’re attempting with your line of discussion. You want cites that while Gaza was still under IDF occupation, there were still terrorist attacks carried out from Gaza? Do I need to cite the facts of the Intifadas? I’m honestly not sure why you want me to cite well known current events and history, or to what end. And simply for the record, your initial hypothetical was what would happen if terrorists in one part of Florida were attacking US citizens in another part of Florida, and the local agencies were powerless to stop them. I pointed out that there would be marital law and that US troops receive the full cooperation of the local government. Then you asked for a cite in response to the fact that the local government in Gaza (ie. Hamas) has actively opposed Israeli martial law. > [@monstro](#): > > You made it sound like it was obvious this wouldn’t work, so I assume you have good reason to believe this. I’ve been paying attention. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 8:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-debate-the-merits-of-this-article-on-israel-gaza/481782/58 "2009-01-18T20:50:14Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > I nominate this as the early leader for most ironic post of the year! Ironic, yes. But sadly it’s true. I wade through this Israel threads and always come away feeling like everyone has lost their freaking minds. And that makes me hate them. > [@DSeid](#): > > As to your next post - The Feds wouldn’t stand for it and would protect the citizens of Fort Laudedale. If that meant using force they would do so. > > What would happen do you think if the Feds didn’t do that, but instead just ignored it? And if the government of Miami were the ones lobbing the rockets at Fort Lauderdale? Do you think Fort Lauderdalians would just say, oh well? Or would they put down their tanning lotion and defend themselves, taking away the Miamians’ walkers if that’s what it took? Of course not. I’m think the Feds and Fort Lauderdale would have every right to go into Miami and take over. Declare a state of emergency and bring in the National Guard. Cordone off main streets, close businesses and schools, and keep snipers trained on every flat surface from Homestead to Hialeah. I’d even be for suspending habeas corpus and tossing suspected terrorists in jail until the rocketing stopped. But bombing schools and apartment buildings just because there’s a rumor suggesting some terrorists are working in there? No. We’re supposedly smart enough and brave enough to actually go into these places and extricate/assassinate who we need to, without killing and maiming unecessarily. I just don’t understand how Israel is bold and capable enough to bomb up a place for an entire month, but they aren’t bold and capable enough to do the above. I’m not saying there would be no controversy or that it would be easy. But it would certainly be better for PR and possibly just as effective than what’s happening now, correct? ---
**Author:** ![treis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bc79bd/32.png) [@treis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/treis)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-debate-the-merits-of-this-article-on-israel-gaza/481782/59 "2009-01-18T20:58:47Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > Heh, your own cite pretty well refutes this notion. > > Herzl was by no means even wedded to the notion of an “Israel” being located where it now is: > > Are you arguing that Herzl had a secret plan to overthrow British rule in _Uganda_? Funny, that plan did not pan out. > > Herzl himself said that he kept the statehood sentiment to himself, not because it was all part of his cunning plan, but because “If I said this out loud today l would be greeted by universal laughter”. In short, it was an absurdity - a sort of nationalist millenialism, unlikely to be taken seriously _by other Zionists_ (who were also not happy about his equally impractical “Uganda” scheme). > > The origins of Zionism were not in such dreams, but in providing a practical solution to the problem of East European pogroms, through some sort of settlement in a “homeland” of some kind. You said: > [@Malthus](#): > > The original intention was not to create an independent nation - that, in the beginning of Zionism, would have been considered hopelessly ambitious - but rather, to create a “homeland” within a larger, imperial structure (first Turkish, and then after WW1, British). > > It is a terrible anacronism to reason backwards from the creation of the state of Israel and assume that everything the Zionists did was part of their cunning plan to that end. The notion of a handful of Jewish refugees from Eastern Europe planning to take on the Turkish Empire is, well, absurd. Your first statement is that the intention was not to create an independent nation. That is false, as demonstrated by the quote I supplied. I guess your second contention is now that they weren’t originally planning on settling in Israel. For one, this is ridiculous on it’s because the name of the organization is Zionist. Zionist, i.e. Zion the land around Jerusalem that they considered to be the ancient homeland of the Jews. It’s clear from the activities of the Zionists that they intended to settle Israel. For example: > [@](#): > > October 13 > Herzl leaves Vienna secretly and travels to Turkey and Palestine in order to meet with the German Kaiser Wilhelm II, who is touring the East. He plans to recruit the Kaiser to influence the Turkish Sultan to seriously consider the proposals of the Zionists. It was only after a few years after the first meeting, and after repeated failures to obtain Turkish permission to start immigration that other options were seriously considered. However, the idea was still to settle Israel as noted by Herzl in April of 1903: > [@](#): > > Herzl reiterates his support for settlement in “Palestine or its vicinity.” Then in May: > [@](#): > > Herzl changes his mind, and is inclined to accept the British offer to settle in Eastern Africa. The British suggest an area of 100,000 square kilometers and in a memorandum from the foreign ministry write: “The foreign secretary is giving serious consideration to offers regarding establishment of some kind of colony or Jewish settlement under conditions that will enable their people to perform their national traditions.” Which indicates to me that Herzl changed his mind based on the idea of having a Jewish state somewhere is preferable to having none at all. However, there is no indication that he ever changed his mind about the preference of founding Israel in Palestine. It had to do with the practicality of the situation. Not to mention the fact that his proposal was rejected, and the WZO remained focused on founding Israel in Palestine. The statements and actions of the WZO all point to the overall goal of creating an independent Jewish state in Palestine. The fact that it was a hopeless ambitious goal doesn’t change the fact that it was their goal. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [January 18, 2009, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-debate-the-merits-of-this-article-on-israel-gaza/481782/60 "2009-01-18T21:02:55Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > Of course not. I’m think the Feds and Fort Lauderdale would have every right to go into Miami and take over. Declare a state of emergency and bring in the National Guard. Cordone off main streets, close businesses and schools, and keep snipers trained on every flat surface from Homestead to Hialeah. I’d even be for suspending habeas corpus and tossing suspected terrorists in jail until the rocketing stopped. Yet again that’s because they’re _part of our country_ and the local government, and especially the local civilian populace, would support the federal intervention. Rather obviously, Israel can not do that in Gaza. The government and a sizable number of militants are firmly aligned against Israel. You’re comparing apples to bowling balls. Also, if you’re suggesting that the IDF has been bombing targets not based on military intelligence, but ‘rumors’, you need to provide a cite for that. > [@monstro](#): > > I just don’t understand how Israel is bold and capable enough to bomb up a place for an entire month, but they aren’t bold and capable enough to do the above. It would help you to understand this is you read up on the subject first. Learning about the Intifadas might be a very good place to start. As should be obvious just as a jumping off point, once a missile/GPS guided munition is inbound, Hamas doesn’t have much say about it. If Israel tried fighting house to house, we’d get something like Jenin. > [@monstro](#): > > just as effective than what’s happening now, correct? Incorrect. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-debate-the-merits-of-this-article-on-israel-gaza/481782.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-debate-the-merits-of-this-article-on-israel-gaza/481782.md?page=4)