# Please define the term "progressive rock" for me **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 29, 2004, 1:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-progressive-rock-for-me/277068 "2004-11-29T01:07:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-progressive-rock-for-me/277068/21 "2004-11-29T19:44:43Z")
> [@Larry Borgia](#): > > And touring with a symphony? That’s a sure sign a band has jumped the shark. **Days of Future Passed** (one of the seminal progressive works) and \*\*Procul Harum Live in Concert with the Edmonton Symphony (their most successful album) > [@Larry Borgia](#): > > Punk Rock couldn’t have killed any type of music. It just wasn’t that popular until the 90’s. When I was in high school in 1979, me and a few friends were routinely mocked for listening to Pere Ubu, Devo, The Sex Pistols, and the Ramones. Even I regarded these bands as novelties and mostly stuck with Sabbath, Led Zep, and Hendrix. Until the 90s? Punk was a 70s phenomenon, and was pretty much over with by 1980 or so. The Ramones had their first album in 1976, and the Sex Pistols released theirs in 1977. “London Calling,” the high point of the punk movement, was released in 1979. BTW, Pere Ubu and Devo were New Wave, not Punk. And, as **ultrafilter** pointed out, punk was a British phenomenon, just like prog rock. Once punk came along, British bands went that way and didn’t bother with progressive rock. So by 1980, if you were forming a band, you’d avoid progressive rock altogether. Without new blood, it’s hard for a genre to survive. By the time Spinal Tap came along in 1984, prog rock was no longer happening. Here’s a site with a good overview: [http://www.progressiverock.com/](http://www.progressiverock.com/) This one also has some great MP3s: [http://www.progarchives.com/](http://www.progarchives.com/) ---
**Author:** ![JohnBckWLD](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d6d6ee/32.png) [@JohnBckWLD](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnBckWLD)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-progressive-rock-for-me/277068/22 "2004-11-29T19:57:27Z")
After seeing the direction this thread has the possibility of taking, Astorian’s [Rock Critics of the World: Get a Freaking Clue! (Re: Art-Rock vs. Punk Rock)](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=232948) rant came to mind. IMHO, the progressive acts that had the larger & most lasting influence on contemporary music weren’t the Brits, but the Krauts; bands like Kraftwerk, Can, Guru Guru & Tangerine Dream. Given the progressive genre’s ability to lurch toward excess, I think by-standers also tend to over analyze its demise. It probably wasn’t punk or the quality of the music that killed the Prog genre - but more likely the record buying public (and record companies) who got sick of it. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-progressive-rock-for-me/277068/23 "2004-11-29T20:06:11Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Until the 90s? Punk was a 70s phenomenon, and was pretty much over with by 1980 or so. The Ramones had their first album in 1976, and the Sex Pistols released theirs in 1977. “London Calling,” the high point of the punk movement, was released in 1979. > > BTW, Pere Ubu and Devo were New Wave, not Punk. > > And, as **ultrafilter** pointed out, punk was a British phenomenon, just like prog rock. Once punk came along, British bands went that way and didn’t bother with progressive rock. So by 1980, if you were forming a band, you’d avoid progressive rock altogether. Without new blood, it’s hard for a genre to survive. Punk survived in both the US and Britain all through the 80s. In the US, it went underground and became “loud, fast and angry”, and in the UK, it stayed aboveground but never got to be quite as popular as it was in the late 70s. The only forms of music that ever really die out are the various forms of teen pop. Anything that appeals to non-teenagers will live forever. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-progressive-rock-for-me/277068/24 "2004-11-29T20:39:43Z")
Yeah, I’ve got to back up ultrafilter on this. I was spray-painting ‘OI!’ on bus stops and digging Minor Threat and Rites of Spring in the DC underground scene all through the 80s. ---
**Author:** ![Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e47c2d/32.png) [@Biffy\_the\_Elephant\_Shrew](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biffy_the_Elephant_Shrew)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-progressive-rock-for-me/277068/25 "2004-11-29T20:48:48Z")
Sorry, folks, but this is a pet peeve of mine: It’s **Procol** Harum, not Proc **u** l. ---
**Author:** ![ianzin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/ed655f/32.png) [@ianzin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ianzin)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-progressive-rock-for-me/277068/26 "2004-11-29T21:08:33Z")
Rick Wakeman knows a thing or two about progressive rock, given that he was one of its leading lights in the 70s and 80s. He was the keyboard wizard with prog rock ‘concept-albums-R-us’ band **Yes** , and also achieved a degree of success as a solo artist. Among his many gifts unto the world: a rock album consisting of six pieces of instrumental keyboard music, entitled ‘The Six Wives of Henry the Eighth’ and a rock opera based on King Arthur which he performed not only with a rock group, orchestra and choir, but **on ice**. With dancers. His verdict? “Progressive rock was just an excuse for those of us [rock musicians] with a bit of classical training to show off a bit”. ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2004, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-progressive-rock-for-me/277068/27 "2004-11-29T22:31:18Z")
In every era of music, a genre, IMO, is more or less defined as “a bunch of lesser lights attempting to recreate the magic of a certain aspect of the work of the leading lights”. Mozart is not usually pigeonholed as a Classical composer, but everyone for several decades afterward is. Beethoven is not always classified as a Romantic, but everyone after him is. The same with Prog-rock. It was brought about by several factors: multi-track recording techniques that lent themselves to more complex arrangements; the rise of the LP, which lent itself to longer composistions; mind-altering drugs that lent themselves to ideas of expanded possibilities. On August 5, 1966, The Beatles released the single “Eleanor Rigby”: Paul sang the lyrics, and not another sound on the record was performed by a Beatle. Producer George Martin thought a string arrangement was good for the song. The Beatles were popular enough at that point that they didn’t need to worry that anyone might regard this as a sell-out. On October 28 of that year, the Kinks released the Album “Face to Face”, which included some fo the first recorded tracks using a Mellotron, an instrument that combined the sound of an orchestra with the convenience of a keyboard. On December 1, The Who released the album “A Quick One”, whose title track was very long, with multiple differing sections (the thinking being “Hey! If those Beatles bastards can do a string quartet, we ought to be able to do an opera and get away with it!”) All of these bands continued on from there, trying out different things, but it was the bands that were inspired by these actions, and who recycled them into oblivion for the rest of their careers, who form the core of prog-rock. Progressive rock can be summed up as lengthy songs, even suites, combinations of rock and orchestral sounds, and chord progressions far more ornate than your average 3 minutes of girls and cars that spelled ROCK prior to that. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-progressive-rock-for-me/277068/28 "2004-11-30T00:06:36Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > Punk survived in both the US and Britain all through the 80s. In the US, it went underground and became “loud, fast and angry”, and in the UK, it stayed aboveground but never got to be quite as popular as it was in the late 70s. Which is exactly my point. By the 80s, punk had a marginalized audience, and the major acts in the genre had broken up. New Wave was also dead (popular music genres often have short shelf lives). The problem with punk was that once the Ramones and the Sex Pistols and the Clash had mapped out the territory, there wasn’t much left other than to copy them. The Rick Wakeman quote is pretty accurate: progressive rock did allow people with classical (or jazz) training to show it off in a rock idiom. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-progressive-rock-for-me/277068/29 "2004-11-30T00:12:01Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Which is exactly my point. By the 80s, punk had a marginalized audience, and the major acts in the genre had broken up. New Wave was also dead (popular music genres often have short shelf lives). The problem with punk was that once the Ramones and the Sex Pistols and the Clash had mapped out the territory, there wasn’t much left other than to copy them. There’s a big difference between having a marginalized audience and being dead. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-progressive-rock-for-me/277068/30 "2004-11-30T22:32:58Z")
> [@RealityChuck](#): > > Which is exactly my point. By the 80s, punk had a marginalized audience, and the major acts in the genre had broken up. New Wave was also dead (popular music genres often have short shelf lives). The problem with punk was that once the Ramones and the Sex Pistols and the Clash had mapped out the territory, there wasn’t much left other than to copy them. I once heard an interview with Joe Strummer where he disagreed with this. He effectively said that Punk was, _by definition_ going to be a short-lived phenomenom because one couldn’t play it for very long (as a decent musician) without becoming bored by it. The raw anger and simplicity forced talented musicians into other forms. He said that accounts for the more experimental efforts of the punks after things flamed out. He also said that’s why the Pistols are still considered punk ‘icons’. They flamed out before they could possibly do anything more than their one thing. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2004, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-progressive-rock-for-me/277068/31 "2004-11-30T23:34:17Z")
With modern rock there is quite a revival of ‘prog’ type rock, but it doesn’t get called prog rock if it is critically acclaimed. Tool and Perfect Circle are influenced by King Crimson, Perfect Circle has some very prog rock sounds (like Yes with testerostrone and Nitche.) Radio Head is often touted as the new Pink Floyd, and has several prog type songs. Mars Volta, God Speed You Black Emperor, and Sigur Ros are less well known proponents. They seem to also be labeled ‘Experimental Rock’ to get away from the ‘Prog Rock’ stigma. If you search the ‘Progressive Rock’ section of Amazon you’ll find Beatles Abey Road, Pink Floyd Dark Side of the Moon, Queen Greates Hits, E.L.O. Greatest Hits, … along with many more deffinate ‘prog’ bands like Rush, Yes, Jeffro Tull, and Genisis. ---
**Author:** ![aaslatten](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f14d63/32.png) [@aaslatten](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aaslatten)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-progressive-rock-for-me/277068/32 "2004-12-01T00:02:47Z")
> [@AHunter3](#): > > So it’s the music where they change the beauty of the melody until they sound just like a symphony? > > Sounds good to me. Kansas, Genesis, Pink Floyd, Enigma, Styx, Alan Parsons Project, > Yes, Kraftwerk, Moody Blues, ELP? > > How about these? — Led Zeppelin, Jethro Tull, U2, Supertramp? Why or why not? Supertramp was more “progressive” on their earlier albums; by the time they released “Breakfast in America” they were pretty much straight-ahead pop. Incidentally, there was quite a bit of interplay among these “progressive” rock bands that might be indicative of similar musical outlooks. Alan Parsons produced Pink Floyd’s Dark Side of the Moon; David Gilmour played on a later Supertramp album; Supertramp’s sax player returned the favor on a post-Waters Floyd record; and Trevor Rabin of Yes and Roger Hodgson of Supertramp worked together. ---
**Author:** ![fluiddruid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/c2a13f/32.png) [@fluiddruid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/fluiddruid)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-progressive-rock-for-me/277068/33 "2004-12-01T00:45:57Z")
> [@ultrafilter](#): > > There’s a big difference between having a marginalized audience and being dead. Agreed. I know a whole group of people who are into progressive rock, and have spread their interest to me (interestingly enough). These are twenty-somethings, too – new fans. I was very surprised to find out that there is a group playing Genesis’ progressive albums in concert reproductions and doing extremely well (particularly in Europe). We went to a concert in Chicago, and it was full of people who were obviously diehard fans. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-progressive-rock-for-me/277068/34 "2004-12-01T00:51:10Z")
> [@Bippy the Beardless](#): > > Mars Volta, God Speed You Black Emperor, and Sigur Ros are less well known proponents. They seem to also be labeled ‘Experimental Rock’ to get away from the ‘Prog Rock’ stigma. Experimental rock is just a little bit different. I always thought of experimental rock as people just doing whatever the hell they wanted, and prog rock as experimentalists writing stuff that still has some pop appeal. ---
**Author:** ![Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ac8455/32.png) [@Bippy\_the\_Beardless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bippy_the_Beardless)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-progressive-rock-for-me/277068/35 "2004-12-01T00:59:28Z")
It is a very blured line though, much of Mars Volta would play on the radio without rasing too much stink being quite popish. I forgot to mention the recent Flaming Lips albums, which are somewhere in the prog-psychadelic-experimental musical idea. As for the inbreeding of prog rock, just look at who has ever played with King Crimson’s Robert Fripp. He has played with just about everyone who has played with anyone in an artistic rock style, from Bowie to Yes. ---
**Author:** ![ultrafilter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/3d9bf3/32.png) [@ultrafilter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ultrafilter)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-progressive-rock-for-me/277068/36 "2004-12-01T01:02:50Z")
Every division of music into genres results in blurred lines. We just try to make the ones that result in the most coherent groups that are not near the boundaries. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [December 1, 2004, 2:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-progressive-rock-for-me/277068/37 "2004-12-01T02:04:04Z")
> [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > I once heard an interview with Joe Strummer where he disagreed with this. > > He effectively said that Punk was, _by definition_ going to be a short-lived phenomenom because one couldn’t play it for very long (as a decent musician) without becoming bored by it. The raw anger and simplicity forced talented musicians into other forms. He said that accounts for the more experimental efforts of the punks after things flamed out. > > He also said that’s why the Pistols are still considered punk ‘icons’. They flamed out before they could possibly do anything more than their one thing. That really not all that different from my point – that punk died very early. I agree it was clearly a self-limiting phenomenon (like disco). **Ultrafilter** – any music genre has a marginalized audience once it’s heyday has passed. I’m sure there are fans of doo-wop, American Popular Music, psychadelia, and probably even the Bosstown Sound around today. But when the genres stop being vital (except for an occasional curiosity, like the swing revival of a couple of years ago), they are effectively dead. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-progressive-rock-for-me/277068.md?page=1)