# Please define the term "support our troops" **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [April 2, 2003, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-support-our-troops/166028 "2003-04-02T19:17:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TVAA](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c57346/32.png) [@TVAA](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TVAA)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-support-our-troops/166028/21 "2003-04-02T22:15:00Z")
Let’s say that a person is driving drunk. Their car hits and kills someone. We’re against people being killed by cars. . . but we don’t blame the car. The car is neutral: it can be used well or poorly. We blame the irresponsible driver. ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-support-our-troops/166028/22 "2003-04-02T22:18:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*BTW, how about the eight years of Clinton bashing? Were those who criticized BC while he had troops in Somalia and Kosovo _also_ hurting the troops, or does that only apply to _Republican_ CiC’s? \*\* To be frank, I bashed Clinton for not getting _into_ Kosovo earlier, and I bashed Clinton for yanking troops out of Somalia too soon giving the “impression” that we pulled out in defeat. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-support-our-troops/166028/23 "2003-04-02T22:20:43Z")
Did you bash those who bashed Clinton while he _did_ have troops in Somalia and Kosovo? ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-support-our-troops/166028/24 "2003-04-02T23:17:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hail Ants \* > \*\* Ok, you can be against the war but not be totally **against** the troops, but you can’t say you support them because, well, you don’t. If you’re against the war then you don’t support what they are doing. \*\* How many people here would say they support our troops? I expect nearly everyone. How many here support Americans killing, maiming, and wounding foreigners, armed though they may be? I would suspect much less. That’s what our troops are doing. To support our troops does not require a brainless enthusiasm for all actions that they are compelled to take in the course of their duties. It is a great thing for our country to do everything that it can do to get behind our troops, but that doesn’t mean that we also have to sign up for the political agenda that got us into this situation, and it certainly doesn’t mean that we have to be enthused about the death and destruction that our troops are now delivering to a corrupt and despotic regime. Don’t tell me I have to become a psychopath in order to be patriotic. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-support-our-troops/166028/25 "2003-04-02T23:47:28Z")
> [@](#): > > Did you bash those who bashed Clinton while he did have troops in Somalia and Kosovo? I know its a little bit of a copout, but Bill Clinton was such an unbelievable scumbag that it was hard to even take any aspect of his ‘foreign policy’ seriously. On a recent episode of Frontline members of the CIA (Wolfowitz included) described Clinton’s Defense Secretary’s reaction to their plan for reducing the threat of terrorism. He just kept saying, “How will this make us look?”. He never once even considered what the positive, longterm results might have been. > [@](#): > > do you support the human shields that have gone to Iraq? Do you support the republican guard? No, because they’re risking their lives for Saddam Hussein. I feel both pity and hatred toward them. > [@](#): > > you can’t support the troops if you’re against the war, because if you don’t support what they’re doing then you don’t support them Yes, because what they are doing is killing people. There is little room for a middle ground. These are not employees of an _evil_ tobacco company or scandal ridden Enron shareholders. Their job is to conquer the Iraqi govt and to kill the soldiers who try and stop them. And this, to me, is the heart of the anti-war movement. They simply have no stomach for this concept and they think everything will remain hunky-dory if we just do nothing. > [@](#): > > it certainly doesn’t mean that we have to be enthused about the death and destruction that our troops are now delivering to a corrupt and despotic regime. Why would you not be enthusiastic about it? Or at least, why would you be upset about it? This is pretty much the only way to end them. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [April 2, 2003, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-support-our-troops/166028/26 "2003-04-02T23:59:12Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hail Ants \* > **And this, to me, is the heart of the anti-war movement. They simply have no stomach for this concept and they think everything will remain hunky-dory if we just do nothing.** And this, to me, reveals your complete ignorance of what the anti-war movement stands for. Really, when you make proclamations about whether or not folks against the war support our soldiers, you could at least _try_ to understand where they’re coming from. With the above statement, you completely lost any credibility to talk about what the anti-war movement does or doesn ot support. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-support-our-troops/166028/27 "2003-04-03T00:12:53Z")
I was specifically talking about the anti-war **protestors**. I have yet to see any one of them come up with a better reason for their protesting other than, “because war is so icky”. They are people who are all too young to remember any real wars besides ‘that cool Desert Storm show’ (myself included) and seem to think that war is something from the middle ages that no civilized country would ever need to resort to. To paraphrase an often used quote, they think freedom & democracy are just there and always will be no matter what. Even 9/11 didn’t snap them out of their little fantasy world. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-support-our-troops/166028/28 "2003-04-03T00:30:27Z")
> [@](#): > > **Hail Ants** said: > I know its a little bit of a copout, but Bill Clinton was such an unbelievable scumbag that it was hard to even take any aspect of his ‘foreign policy’ seriously. This totally destroys your credibility, but thank you for playing. Oh, and Bush is such an unbelievable scumbag that it’s impossible to take any apect of his foreign policy seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 12:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-support-our-troops/166028/29 "2003-04-03T00:31:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hail Ants \* > **I was specifically talking about the anti-war protestors.** No, you weren’t. You earlier said the anti-war **movement**. You might choose your words better, if you’re trying to communicate something other than “anyone against the war.” > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hail Ants \* > **I have yet to see any one of them come up with a better reason for their protesting other than, “because war is so icky”.** Over-generalize much? You’re not doing your position any credit when you take a few choice soundbites and apply them to everyone who’s against the war, or even everyone who attends a peace rally. Try again. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-support-our-troops/166028/30 "2003-04-03T00:35:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hail Ants \* > **I was specifically talking about the anti-war protestors. I have yet to see any one of them come up with a better reason for their protesting other than, “because war is so icky”.** Then evidently you’ve spoken to none of them. Surely you don’t expect us to believe you’ve polled a representative sample of anti-war protestors and not one of them had an actual reason? Please; we aren’t that gullible. Straw man arguments will get you nowhere on this board. ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-support-our-troops/166028/31 "2003-04-03T00:38:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Diogenes the Cynic \* > \*\*Did you bash those who bashed Clinton while he _did_ have troops in Somalia and Kosovo? \*\* No. They were legitimately bashing Clinton for something other than was related to Kosovo and Somalia. Clinton was doing something good in Kosovo, and while the mission in Somalia was kinda vague and open ended, I wasnt about to bash him for it while he had troops there. Still hated the guy but he does have his moments. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-support-our-troops/166028/32 "2003-04-03T00:38:49Z")
Not to hijack the thread too much, but I should point out that the assertion in the OP that soldiers returning from Vietnam were uniformly abused and/or despised by the folks at home. > [@](#): > > It’s become an article of patriotic faith: When our boys came wearily home from America’s failed involvement in Vietnam, longhaired protesters in the airports spat on them and called them “baby killers.” Today, countless veterans insist they remember this happening to them. > > But according to Vietnam vet Jerry Lembcke – a sociology professor at Holy Cross College in Worcester, Mass., and the author of _The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam_ (New York University Press, 1998)– there’s no documentary evidence that it actually did. > > “If you go back and look at the historical record, like I did – newspaper accounts, police records, and also just things historians have written,” Lembcke told this reporter, “you don’t find any record or any evidence that these things happened – or even that they were being claimed as happening – in the late '60s and early '70s.” A number of other scholars cited by Lembcke have also combed contemporary records in vain. Not so much as a letter penned by a GI writing home at the time has turned up that describes being spat on, he says. [Link.](http://www.mountainx.com/news/2003/0319troops.php) And to chime in on the debate – I care about our troops more than George W. Bush does. I don’t think they should have to risk their safety and their lives just so Haliburton stock gains another 20 points, nor so that the neoconservatives can push their “America-only” philosophy. The lives of the troops are worth more than oil and power in this case. ---
**Author:** ![Tejota](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/958977/32.png) [@Tejota](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tejota)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 12:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-support-our-troops/166028/33 "2003-04-03T00:39:53Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by X~Slayer(ALE) \* > \*\*What does say to our troops when anti-war demonstartors say they support our troops but violently oppose the idiot that our troops gave a solemn oath to obey? Kinda makes their job kinda meaningless doesnt it? \*\* They damn well better **not** have sworn an oath of fealty to George Bush. They swore to uphold the consitution and to obey properly consituted orders. They answer up the chain of command to the president. But **he** answers to us. Citizens have a right _and a duty_ to criticize the little weasel. ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-support-our-troops/166028/34 "2003-04-03T00:41:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > \*\*Straw man arguments will get you nowhere on this board. \*\* \ what the hell are straw man arguements? This term has been the soundbyte of the week on this board. Someone please clue me in about this. ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-support-our-troops/166028/35 "2003-04-03T00:44:48Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by X~Slayer(ALE) \* > \*\*\ > > what the hell are straw man arguements? This term has been the soundbyte of the week on this board. Someone please clue me in about this. \*\* [The Usefulness of a Straw Man](http://ctl.idealog.info/the_usefulness_of_a_straw_man.html) > [@](#): > > **The classic definition of a straw man usually goes along the lines of constructing a position which is similar to your opponent’s position but far more easily attacked. One then defeats this false position (one is said to attack the straw man) then act as if the opponent’s position has been defeated. If done with sufficient skill one can often get the opponent to defend the straw man instead of his actual position.** Used quite often in these parts, especially in emotionally-charged topics. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-support-our-troops/166028/36 "2003-04-03T00:44:59Z")
If accusing Bill Clinton of having ‘a serious lack of character’ ruins my credibility I think over 50% of the people on this board should pack up & leave! 🙂 > [@](#): > > Over-generalize much? I really wasn’t trying to. I haven’t heard a realistic anti-war POV. It always let the UN inspectors do it, war is wrong, its about the oil etc. ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 12:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-support-our-troops/166028/37 "2003-04-03T00:46:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Tejota \* > \*\*They damn well better not have sworn an oath of fealty to George Bush. They swore to uphold the consitution and to obey properly consituted orders. > > They answer up the chain of command to the president. But **he** answers to us. Citizens have a right _and a duty_ to criticize the little weasel. \*\* _ugh…_ Here is the Oath of Enlistment that every enlisted man takes before entering the military. [http://www.stayarmy.com/theoath.htm](http://www.stayarmy.com/theoath.htm) \*“I DO SOLEMNLY SWEAR (OR AFFIRM) THAT I WILL SUPPORT AND DEFEND THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES AGAINST ALL ENEMIES, FOREIGN AND DOMESTIC; THAT I WILL BEAR TRUE FAITH AND ALLEGIANCE TO THE SAME; AND THAT I WILL **OBEY THE ORDERS OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES** AND THE ORDERS OF THE OFFICERS APPOINTED OVER ME, ACCORDING TO REGULATIONS AND THE UNIFORM CODE OF MILITARY JUSTICE. SO HELP ME GOD.” \* ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-support-our-troops/166028/38 "2003-04-03T00:48:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Hail Ants \* > \*\*I really wasn’t trying to. I haven’t heard a realistic anti-war POV. It always let the UN inspectors do it, war is wrong, its about the oil etc. \*\* And “war is icky” is saying this how? Perhaps you’d get a better answer about a valid anti-war perspective if you looked a little deeper than protestors’ signs and the soundbites you hear on television. Some of the discussions on this board would be a better place to start. ---
**Author:** ![X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/bbe5ce/32.png) [@X\_Slayer\_ALE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/X_Slayer_ALE)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-support-our-troops/166028/39 "2003-04-03T00:48:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Avalonian \* > \*\*[The Usefulness of a Straw Man](http://ctl.idealog.info/the_usefulness_of_a_straw_man.html) > > Used quite often in these parts, especially in emotionally-charged topics. \*\* Thank you, **Avalonian**. That was quite informative. I appreciate the reply. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Avalonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@Avalonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Avalonian)\ **Post date:** [April 3, 2003, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-support-our-troops/166028/40 "2003-04-03T00:53:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by X~Slayer(ALE) \* > \*\*Thank you, **Avalonian**. That was quite informative. I appreciate the reply. 🙂 \*\* Anytime. 🙂 I just recently decided to look it up myself, because I also saw the term getting thrown around more often. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-support-our-troops/166028.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-define-the-term-support-our-troops/166028.md?page=3)