# Please direct me to this type of argument regarding the Book of Mormon **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [November 10, 2007, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-direct-me-to-this-type-of-argument-regarding-the-book-of-mormon/425863 "2007-11-10T02:57:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 10\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 2:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-direct-me-to-this-type-of-argument-regarding-the-book-of-mormon/425863/1 "2007-11-10T02:57:38Z")
I am seeking books and/or web sites by non- or ex-Mormons that argue for the position that Joseph Smith, Jr., invented/fabricated the Book of Mormon on his own **solitary** resources (with the possible exception of the KJV material) from a naturalistic (i.e., non-supernatural) perspective. There are plenty of apologetic works defending Smith as the supernaturally assisted “translator” of the alleged “gold plates”, but I’ve read enough of them already. There are also a number of naturalistic arguments that Smith relied on others’ works, such as those of Solomon Spaulding and/or Sidney Rigdon, but those are not what I’m looking for either. I want directions instead to what I described in my first paragraph. Note, of course, that this is GQ, not GD, so let’s not debate the issues here. Thank you. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 3:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-direct-me-to-this-type-of-argument-regarding-the-book-of-mormon/425863/2 "2007-11-10T03:04:54Z")
[Watch this episode](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/All_About_Mormons) the next time it comes around. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-direct-me-to-this-type-of-argument-regarding-the-book-of-mormon/425863/3 "2007-11-10T03:37:24Z")
I’ve seen it, thanks, and I’ve seldom laughed so hard! I bought the DVD for that season precisely because of that episode alone. But, of course, that doesn’t help me. I should add that I’ve already read Fawn Brodie’s wondrously well-written and compelling _No Man Knows My History_, which tells Smith’s story from a remarkably intellectually honest, naturalistic, and critical perspective. Those interested in fascinating biographies in general really must read her truly gifted and impressive exploration of the life of Joseph Smith (revised substantially in 1970). I don’t think I’ve ever read a better biography. And her powerful “Appendix B” is the first – and regrettably so far the only – exposition of just what I’m looking for in my OP. ---
**Author:** ![askeptic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/eb9ed0/32.png) [@askeptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/askeptic)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 3:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-direct-me-to-this-type-of-argument-regarding-the-book-of-mormon/425863/4 "2007-11-10T03:56:09Z")
Under the Banner of Heaven:A Story of A Violent Faith by Jon Krakauer Has some good historical sections and a great index which might lead you to what you are looking for. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-direct-me-to-this-type-of-argument-regarding-the-book-of-mormon/425863/5 "2007-11-10T04:17:46Z")
Thanks. I’ve read that, too, but will happily review it again for information relevant to my current needs. ---
**Author:** ![PBear42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PBear42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PBear42)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 8:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-direct-me-to-this-type-of-argument-regarding-the-book-of-mormon/425863/6 "2007-11-10T08:05:53Z")
Here’s another relatively well-known work, so maybe you’ve already seen it. Dan Vogel’s [Joseph Smith: The Making of a Prophet](http://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Making-Prophet-Biography/dp/1560851791) focuses almost entirely on the writing of the Book of Mormon, and identifies what he (Vogel) sees as the important influences, including family dynamics and contemporary religious debates. What I especially liked is that Vogel is a skeptic, but not a basher. IOW, he’s doing history, not theology, which is rather more to my tastes. ---
**Author:** ![ambushed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3bc359/32.png) [@ambushed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ambushed)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 9:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-direct-me-to-this-type-of-argument-regarding-the-book-of-mormon/425863/7 "2007-11-10T09:36:15Z")
Excellent. Thank you very much, **PBear42**! Especially because although I had been informed that Vogel had written a Smith as sole author defense, I wasn’t aware of two things that were critically important to me: The first being that Vogel wrote as a skeptic, and the second being the rather more important datum of just what the title of that work was! May I ask your opinion on just how skeptical Vogel is concerning the LDS Church as a whole and Smith as “Prophet and Revelator” specifically? Is he still a member in good standing? Because I don’t wish to read any more apologetics. I am further delighted by your remark: > [@PBear32](#): > > What I especially liked is that Vogel is a skeptic, but not a basher. IOW, he’s doing history, not theology, which is rather more to my tastes. Can I get an Amen, brother? That is _ **precisely** _ why I admire Brodie’s _No Man Knows My History_ so much! She takes the wholly courageous stance of defending Smith against so many lies and calumnies and other unfair attacks from both critics of the Church and the Church itself, while at the same time debunking most of Smith’s own claims, especially the supernatural ones. In any case, I shall order Vogel’s book forthwith. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-direct-me-to-this-type-of-argument-regarding-the-book-of-mormon/425863/8 "2007-11-10T16:01:47Z")
I think Grant Palmer’s book [**An Insider’s View of Mormon Origins**](http://www.amazon.com/Insiders-View-Mormon-Origins/dp/1560851570/ref=sr_1_1/002-8050741-7970416?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194708786&sr=8-1) is another book that fits the bill. I’m not sure . Grant is an active Mormon (although I believe he was disciplined for publishing the book) who just doesn’t believe the Book of Mormon had supernatural origins. (I don’t know how people can believe this and still remain active Mormons, but I know a few dozen people of similar beliefs on the Internet, so I guess it’s not impossible.) I also think David Persuitte’s [**Joseph Smith and the Origins of the Book of Mormon**](http://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Origins-Book-Mormon/dp/078640826X/ref=cm_lmf_tit_16_rsrsrs0/002-8050741-7970416) and Scott Madsen / B. H. Roberts’s [**Studies of the Book of Mormon**](http://www.amazon.com/Studies-Book-Mormon-Brigham-Madsen/dp/1560850272/ref=cm_lmf_tit_9_rsrsrs0/002-8050741-7970416) might fit the bill, although the latter discusses parallels between the Book of Mormon and **View of the Hebrews** by Ethan Smith so it may not be what you’re looking for. ---
**Author:** ![chorpler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chorpler/32/2888_2.png) [@chorpler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chorpler)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-direct-me-to-this-type-of-argument-regarding-the-book-of-mormon/425863/9 "2007-11-10T16:22:52Z")
Oh, and I also like Vogel’s work. I haven’t read it all the way through, but I don’t think Vogel’s book could be taken as an apologetic work except by the most virulently critics of Mormonism. Richard Bushman’s [**Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling**](http://www.amazon.com/Joseph-Smith-Rough-Stone-Rolling/dp/1400077532/ref=tag_dpp_lp_edpp_ttl_in/002-8050741-7970416) is the book I recommend for my relatives who want a reasonably thorough biography with a more apologetic tone; Vogel would freak them out. ---
**Author:** ![PBear42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ecccb3/32.png) [@PBear42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PBear42)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2007, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-direct-me-to-this-type-of-argument-regarding-the-book-of-mormon/425863/10 "2007-11-10T17:39:21Z")
I think **chorpler** hit it on the head. [Vogel](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dan_Vogel) is a former LDS who manages to tick off both sides of the aisle. (Me? I’m a live-and-let-live atheist with no axe to grind. Just in this for the story. And it IS an interesting story.)