# Please don't fire a gun at anyone unless you absolutely have to **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [March 2, 2016, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-dont-fire-a-gun-at-anyone-unless-you-absolutely-have-to/747716 "2016-03-02T06:46:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![GrumpyBunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bc8723/32.png) [@GrumpyBunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GrumpyBunny)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-dont-fire-a-gun-at-anyone-unless-you-absolutely-have-to/747716/21 "2016-03-02T16:51:20Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Why do people like you have insert your hateful views into a wonderful concept like everyone killing each other? _howls with laughter at the above sentence_ ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-dont-fire-a-gun-at-anyone-unless-you-absolutely-have-to/747716/22 "2016-03-02T16:54:56Z")
Technically, would not most “needless” shootings be of people that are already dead? Seems like a fringe problem at best. ---
**Author:** ![gnoitall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bb73d2/32.png) [@gnoitall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gnoitall)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-dont-fire-a-gun-at-anyone-unless-you-absolutely-have-to/747716/23 "2016-03-02T17:22:12Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Technically, would not most “needless” shootings be of people that are already dead? > > Seems like a fringe problem at best. A: “You shot him needlessly!” B: “He needed killin’.” A: “He was already dead!” B: “He needed more killin’.” ---
**Author:** ![cochrane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cochrane/32/10441_2.png) [@cochrane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cochrane)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-dont-fire-a-gun-at-anyone-unless-you-absolutely-have-to/747716/24 "2016-03-02T17:31:33Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Technically, would not most “needless” shootings be of people that are already dead? > > Seems like a fringe problem at best. What if they’re undead? Zombies need shootin’! ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-dont-fire-a-gun-at-anyone-unless-you-absolutely-have-to/747716/25 "2016-03-02T19:32:41Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I’m taking the other side. I think people have to shoot as many people as possible. What is the point of having guns if not to kill other people? If everybody had a gun and we did it just right everyone could kill someone and be killed all at the same time. Aren’t we always looking for people to come together, to put aside their differences and act towards a common goal? Well this could be it. You haven’t thought this through. There are hundreds if not thousands of nuclear reactors worldwide. If everyone shot each other, these now-unattended reactors would all melt down, causing an environmental disaster. But seriously, I hoped maybe someone would have a better solution to gun violence. I can’t think of anything (practical) at all… ---
**Author:** ![Omar\_Little](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omar_little/32/269_2.png) [@Omar\_Little](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omar_Little)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-dont-fire-a-gun-at-anyone-unless-you-absolutely-have-to/747716/26 "2016-03-02T20:26:31Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > Look at how many needless shootings we have. “Needless” may be the debatable part of this entire thread. ---
**Author:** ![Crazy\_Canuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crazy_canuck/32/5282_2.png) [@Crazy\_Canuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crazy_Canuck)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-dont-fire-a-gun-at-anyone-unless-you-absolutely-have-to/747716/27 "2016-03-02T20:28:04Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > If you can justifiably avoid shooting somebody at least once in your life, do it. You will score moral points, no matter what else you have done. Whew. I was starting to feel that my repeated human sacrifices to Lucifer the Light-Bringer made me a bad person. Now I know that as long as I continue to use a ceremonial dagger to slowly flay my victims instead just shooting them, I can continue to score moral points and feel better about myself. Thanks! ---
**Author:** ![watchwolf49](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e9c0ed/32.png) [@watchwolf49](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/watchwolf49)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-dont-fire-a-gun-at-anyone-unless-you-absolutely-have-to/747716/28 "2016-03-02T20:52:26Z")
Is there a catalog or something where I can trade my moral points in? I need bigger splash guards on my pick-up truck. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-dont-fire-a-gun-at-anyone-unless-you-absolutely-have-to/747716/29 "2016-03-02T20:55:24Z")
I promise you, I won’t shoot anyone unless it’s absolutely necessary. Long ago, the draft board said I was unqualified to be a soldier (4f), so that option was out. As a civilian citizen, I have a small number of guns, which I have used only for target practice. I’ve never seen any sense to suicide, so that’s out. It’s the worst possible option. ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-dont-fire-a-gun-at-anyone-unless-you-absolutely-have-to/747716/30 "2016-03-02T21:38:42Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > You haven’t thought this through. There are hundreds if not thousands of nuclear reactors worldwide. If everyone shot each other, these now-unattended reactors would all melt down, causing an environmental disaster. Great! I wonder if there are any downsides. ---
**Author:** ![thirdname](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/d07c76/32.png) [@thirdname](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thirdname)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 9:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-dont-fire-a-gun-at-anyone-unless-you-absolutely-have-to/747716/31 "2016-03-02T21:39:22Z")
Damn, now I have to rearrange my whole schedule. ---
**Author:** ![Gray\_Ghost](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c0e974/32.png) [@Gray\_Ghost](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gray_Ghost)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-dont-fire-a-gun-at-anyone-unless-you-absolutely-have-to/747716/32 "2016-03-02T22:03:16Z")
> [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](#): > > …But seriously, I hoped maybe someone would have a better solution to gun violence. I can’t think of anything (practical) at all… 1. Don’t worry about suicide, except to ensure that mental health resources are available for all who need them. That takes care of about 50-60% of the gun death toll. Many (most?) of the suicidal are going to kill themselves whether a firearm is available or not. This is a utilitarian value judgment, but the hypothetical decrease in suicides caused by making firearms less available to everyone, is outweighed by the utility of adults being able to purchase and own firearms. 2. Stop the War on Some Drugs. What percentage of gun deaths arise out of organized crime, mainly surrounding dispute resolution in black markets such as narcotics? I’ve read about 2/3, but I’m open to new data. When Coors and their distributors have a dispute, they use lawyers, not guns. Pot, crack, meth markets don’t have that option. Not that gangs won’t find some other black market to kill themselves over, but let’s see what decriminalization does to gun violence. At the least, it might free up prison space for… 3. When you identify a violent felon, keep their ass locked up. Here’s some [Bureau of Justice Statistics data from 2006](http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fssc06st.pdf) on state courts and median/average sentences for criminals. The results might surprise you. Page 6 of the .pdf has a handy chart. From it, we see that the median maximum sentence for Robbery, or theft through the use of violence, was 60 months. 24 months for Aggravated Assault. When they’re released after their sentence, to go on parole, they often re-offend. Instead of only locking them up for 2-5 years, keep them locked up until they’re too old to misbehave, and I’ll wager violent crime rates will go down. Not that they aren’t already at near-historic lows. 1. When you find an armed felon, or other prohibited person, throw them back into jail. When you find people who knowingly sell firearms to prohibited people, knowing at the time that the buyer was unable to lawfully own a firearm, send them to jail too. The previously law-abiding do commit violent crimes. It’s really rare though, especially compared to gun violence committed by the previously violent. Let’s address the low-hanging fruit first. Do those three things, and I think you’ll be amazed at the drop in gun violence in this country. Again, not that it isn’t already really low in the U.S, historically. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 10:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-dont-fire-a-gun-at-anyone-unless-you-absolutely-have-to/747716/33 "2016-03-02T22:29:24Z")
I’m going to go out on a limb and say that I believe that murder is wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-dont-fire-a-gun-at-anyone-unless-you-absolutely-have-to/747716/34 "2016-03-02T22:41:10Z")
I avoided shooting someone today, and two yesterday! ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [March 2, 2016, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-dont-fire-a-gun-at-anyone-unless-you-absolutely-have-to/747716/35 "2016-03-02T22:41:30Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > I’m taking the other side. I think people have to shoot as many people as possible. What is the point of having guns if not to kill other people? If everybody had a gun and we did it just right everyone could kill someone and be killed all at the same time. Aren’t we always looking for people to come together, to put aside their differences and act towards a common goal? Well this could be it. Besides, those bullets need a reason for existing. They can’t just sit around wondering what it’s all been for. Killing a human is right up there on seriousness of bullet-life purpose. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-dont-fire-a-gun-at-anyone-unless-you-absolutely-have-to/747716/36 "2016-03-03T02:56:56Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > I avoided shooting someone today, and two yesterday! Yeah, but if they needed shootin’ you done a bad thing. Violence happens because some people don’t think violence is out of bounds. The OP is evidently not one of those folks. As long as we have violent people we will have violent behavior. There are some practical things we can do to reduce the incidence of lethal violence. Asking nicely isn’t one of them. ---
**Author:** ![Ukulele\_Ike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/df788c/32.png) [@Ukulele\_Ike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ukulele_Ike)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 3:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-dont-fire-a-gun-at-anyone-unless-you-absolutely-have-to/747716/37 "2016-03-03T03:41:59Z")
God damn it. Now I have to go out and buy some guns so I can avoid pointing them at and/or shooting people. Would it be okay if I just avoided pointing my kitchen knives at and/or stabbing people? ---
**Author:** ![the\_diego](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7bcc69/32.png) [@the\_diego](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/the_diego)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 4:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-dont-fire-a-gun-at-anyone-unless-you-absolutely-have-to/747716/38 "2016-03-03T04:00:34Z")
Adopt the .500 Nitro Express for use by the police. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-dont-fire-a-gun-at-anyone-unless-you-absolutely-have-to/747716/39 "2016-03-03T04:21:35Z")
> [@Gray\_Ghost](#): > > 1. Don’t worry about suicide, except to ensure that mental health resources are available for all who need them. That takes care of about 50-60% of the gun death toll. Yes. This country’s mental health services seem inadequate. Care can seem distant, and I think too often prescribed drugs don’t help but rather make things worse. I’m not an expert, it isn’t clear if mental illness can generally be cured. ex: Humpty Dumpty could not be healed. But it can be managed. Don’t give guns to certain mentally ill types, for starters. But- are we going to increase mental health screenings then? Maybe make it a big part of public schooling, even a part of one’s grade, having “good mental health”? Let’s assume for a second that this last idea is brilliant, all the pundits of every stripe laud it, talking heads and politicians demand it be enacted. Still, there are going to be some people who view the move as tyrannical, “over-reach”, “mind control”. Even if you don’t accept the premise of my supposition, pretty much any proposal of this kind the government makes is going to be met with vociferous opposition. So, maybe make the high-school mental health program opt-in? If you opt out and your kid grows up to be a crazy mofo, don’t blame the government for once, mmmkay? > [@](#): > > Many (most?) of the suicidal are going to kill themselves whether a firearm is available or not. This is a utilitarian value judgment, but the hypothetical decrease in suicides caused by making firearms less available to everyone, is outweighed by the utility of adults being able to purchase and own firearms. I brought up suicides because they make up such a large proportion of gun deaths. A lot of people throw around the number “30,000 gun deaths a year”, but it seems dishonest to omit that about 2/3 are suicides. I don’t know about heavy-handed limitation of access to firearms. SCOTUS ruled recently on the 2nd Amendment, no? Upholding a reading such that there is an individual right to bear arms? Like it or not, that’s our law, so we can’t seriously propose very wide-ranging restrictions on gun ownership- hardly at all is closer to the truth IMHO. > [@](#): > > 1. Stop the War on Some Drugs. What percentage of gun deaths arise out of organized crime, mainly surrounding dispute resolution in black markets such as narcotics? I’ve read about 2/3, but I’m open to new data. When Coors and their distributors have a dispute, they use lawyers, not guns. Pot, crack, meth markets don’t have that option. Not that gangs won’t find some other black market to kill themselves over, but let’s see what decriminalization does to gun violence. That’s the gist! I support legalizing pot already, this amounts to just one more reason. Crack? Meth? I don’t know, we could end up with more suicides and violence if we make those things legal. Sentence drug criminals to rehab instead of jail, no rap sheet? Have a school with a mandatory-for-criminals mental health program in the rehab center? Maybe legalize MDMA, from what I’ve read it is supposed to be relatively safe, but I don’t know, the negative case is that it can cause permanent depression, in which case, if true, its proponents are far underestimating the danger. > [@](#): > > 1. When you identify a violent felon, keep their ass locked up. Here’s some [Bureau of Justice Statistics data from 2006](http://www.bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/fssc06st.pdf) on state courts and median/average sentences for criminals. The results might surprise you. Page 6 of the .pdf has a handy chart. From it, we see that the median maximum sentence for Robbery, or theft through the use of violence, was 60 months. 24 months for Aggravated Assault. When they’re released after their sentence, to go on parole, they often re-offend. > > Instead of only locking them up for 2-5 years, keep them locked up until they’re too old to misbehave, and I’ll wager violent crime rates will go down. Not that they aren’t already at near-historic lows. Get tough on violent crime, not ‘victimless’ crimes. I can dig it. I’d add, “get tough on white-collar crime.” I think it is possible that more people have a grievance against the world in general than otherwise would because certain kinds of financial crimes seem to be rewarded rather than punished. That, and these crimes often impoverish lots of people, who then get labeled losers and takers and so on by prominent figures in the media. If America didn’t piss so many people off in these ways, there might be less shootings. > [@](#): > > 1. When you find an armed felon, or other prohibited person, throw them back into jail. When you find people who knowingly sell firearms to prohibited people, knowing at the time that the buyer was unable to lawfully own a firearm, send them to jail too. Sounds logical. > [@](#): > > The previously law-abiding do commit violent crimes. It’s really rare though, especially compared to gun violence committed by the previously violent. Let’s address the low-hanging fruit first. Do those three things, and I think you’ll be amazed at the drop in gun violence in this country. Again, not that it isn’t already really low in the U.S, historically. How low? It seems too high, regardless. Recent advances in communications technology have heightened the issue in the public’s awareness. ---
**Author:** ![Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/try2b_comprehensive/32/65_2.png) [@Try2B\_Comprehensive](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Try2B_Comprehensive)\ **Post date:** [March 3, 2016, 4:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-dont-fire-a-gun-at-anyone-unless-you-absolutely-have-to/747716/40 "2016-03-03T04:49:04Z")
> [@usedtobe](#): > > Never point a gun at anything you do not wish to destroy. > This is a debate? > I strongly suspect that the people who actually DO shoot other people fully _intend_ to destroy their targets. Well, wasn’t it Aristotle that said, “the unexamined life is not worth living”? From an ethical (let alone legal) standpoint, people’s “wish to destroy” is frequently misguided and wrong. If people had a clearer sense of practical ethics, the number of targets to destroy in the world would shrink dramatically. > [@](#): > > Now: your anti-suicide message is a separate issue. Your concern is touching, if way out of the normal bounds of polite discourse. If you don’t like it, you will have to lump it. > [@](#): > > You do not have the right to over-ride another’s decision. I’m only suggesting getting a second opinion before shooting yourself! I am not putting myself in anyone’s cockpit and helping myself to their controls. > [@SenorBeef](#): > > Only murder with guns, I think. That’s a special kind of bad, worse than the others, worthy of special instructions. > [@Mithrander](#): > > Whew. I was starting to feel that my repeated human sacrifices to Lucifer the Light-Bringer made me a bad person. Now I know that as long as I continue to use a ceremonial dagger to slowly flay my victims instead just shooting them, I can continue to score moral points and feel better about myself. > > Thanks! Really? If I say, “don’t shoot people”, I am implicitly supporting murder by other methods? > [@Blaster\_Master](#): > > even if one does believe one is Hitler reborn, that’s no excuse, all the more reason to seek help, because they’re obviously sick in the head. If you are a crazy person reading the 'dope, who will you listen to: a guy who acts like you’re nuts for thinking you are the reincarnated Hitler, or someone who believes you? > [@Guinastasia](#): > > I’m going to go out on a limb and say that I believe that murder is wrong. Yah, but what do you propose we do about it? > [@LSLGuy](#): > > There are some practical things we can do to reduce the incidence of lethal violence. Asking nicely isn’t one of them. This is why **tomndeb** missed the gist of my debate style- get them to agree with you before it even starts! [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-dont-fire-a-gun-at-anyone-unless-you-absolutely-have-to/747716.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-dont-fire-a-gun-at-anyone-unless-you-absolutely-have-to/747716.md?page=3)