# Please explain the legality of an IRS money seizure. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 28, 2014, 6:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-legality-of-an-irs-money-seizure/702721 "2014-10-28T06:22:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![MostlyUseless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MostlyUseless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyUseless)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-legality-of-an-irs-money-seizure/702721/21 "2014-10-28T14:30:34Z")
In this instance, it is the IRS who will ‘curtail’ the activity. Civil forfeiture is being used Nationwise to fleece citizens. Forcing an individual to get an attorney to get their money back is flat out extortion. No agency in the position of making the determination of whether to seize or not should benefit in any way from that seizure. Basic conflict of interest, eh? ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-legality-of-an-irs-money-seizure/702721/22 "2014-10-28T14:33:47Z")
Well, duh. It’s explained right in the article: > [@](#): > > “I don’t think [the IRS is] really interested in anything,” said a lawyer representing another seizure case. “They just want the money.” ---
**Author:** ![md2000](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/73ab20/32.png) [@md2000](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/md2000)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-legality-of-an-irs-money-seizure/702721/23 "2014-10-28T14:38:43Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > … > > Where are the banks with the balls to tell the IRS No, this money belongs to a depositor, and we will not turn it over to you without due process. Bring us an order signed by a judge who has heard the evidence for the legitimacy of the seizure. Until there are such banks, why does anyone actually believe the myth that their money is safer iin a bank than under their mattress? > [@Mr.Bill](#): > > It’s the bank that notifies the IRS about the supposedly suspicious deposits in the first place. Why would they notify then say ‘no we won’t give it to you’? Picking a fight with the IRS is not generally a good idea, even for a bank. The banks with the balls to say no? Their president is probably serving time for violating laws on money laundering. Crashing the world economic order? No bonus this month. Fight IRS seizure orders? Must be complicit in money laundering conspiracy. Banks exist at the pleasure of the government, you can’t fight the IRS and win without spending a fortune on lawyers and years in court. Note that the seizure is a civil action - not criminal. that is the way the law has been written. The IRS also has the authority to freeze bank accounts immediately until their action goes through. The law was deliberately written so that only “preponderance of evidence” is needed, rather than the seizure being part of the final judgement in a criminal trial. The logic was simple at the time - the drug kingpins drive Ferraris or Mercedes and live in mansions, but actually tying them to specific drug crimes is difficult. Simpler to launch a civil action, pre-emptively seize all their stuff, and make them prove the earned it legitimately. As we’ve seen with Patriot Act and others, once the law was justified using the most extreme cases, it was applied to the little fish that previously had constitutional protection, but now don’t seem to. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-legality-of-an-irs-money-seizure/702721/24 "2014-10-28T14:49:51Z")
“They just want the money” is pretty good justification for your average strong-arm mob… but does the IRS really care about money, per se? And do these seizures amount to enough, net, to make a difference in their “recovery” rates or whatever stat they are watching? After the costs of enforcement and defense? It doesn’t really make sense. It’s a bit like tasking a SWAT team to use their resources to make sure every goddamned jaywalker gets his. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-legality-of-an-irs-money-seizure/702721/25 "2014-10-28T14:55:26Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > “They just want the money” is pretty good justification for your average strong-arm mob… but does the IRS really care about money, per se? And do these seizures amount to enough, net, to make a difference in their “recovery” rates or whatever stat they are watching? After the costs of enforcement and defense? It doesn’t really make sense. > > It’s a bit like tasking a SWAT team to use their resources to make sure every goddamned jaywalker gets his. Or they need the money to cover up some internal malfeasance. When it comes to the IRS never attribute to stupidity that which is adequately explained by malice. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-legality-of-an-irs-money-seizure/702721/26 "2014-10-28T14:59:07Z")
> [@Xema](#): > > The issue here isn’t the law on “structuring”, it’s the IRS’s scorn for due process. Congress’ scorn for due process, not the IRS’. The IRS can’t vote _themselves_ extrajudicial powers. ---
**Author:** ![jtur88](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e9c0ed/32.png) [@jtur88](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jtur88)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-legality-of-an-irs-money-seizure/702721/27 "2014-10-28T15:27:12Z")
Does a salaried IRS working-stiff agent get a bonus if he uncovers a case in which there is a seizure? You can always get to the truth by following the money. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-legality-of-an-irs-money-seizure/702721/28 "2014-10-28T15:33:14Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > Does a salaried IRS working-stiff agent get a bonus if he uncovers a case in which there is a seizure? You can always get to the truth by following the money. Not necessarily, but they score plenty of points for bringing in cash. The IRS is always behind on collections and it’s a feather in the cap of any agent who brings the money in. I have personal experience with the way they work. They are ruthless, blatantly dishonest, and they maintain a code of silence. If it sounds like the Mafia, it’s not, it’s worse. ---
**Author:** ![Amateur\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/59ef9b/32.png) [@Amateur\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Amateur_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 3:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-legality-of-an-irs-money-seizure/702721/29 "2014-10-28T15:47:14Z")
> [@TriPolar](#): > > Or they need the money to cover up some internal malfeasance. When it comes to the IRS never attribute to stupidity that which is adequately explained by malice. Even with extreme cynicism (not misplaced in this discussion), I’d have trouble believing the IRS could get away with internal graft of this type. > [@](#): > > Not necessarily, but they score plenty of points for bringing in cash. The IRS is always behind on collections and it’s a feather in the cap of any agent who brings the money in. More likely. It’s just as nauseating, but not blatantly illegal. > [@](#): > > They are ruthless, blatantly dishonest, and they maintain a code of silence. If it sounds like the Mafia, it’s not, it’s worse. Of course it is. The Mafia’s activities are illegal and there is at least some continuing opposition and enforcement. ---
**Author:** ![Xema](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/9de053/32.png) [@Xema](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Xema)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-legality-of-an-irs-money-seizure/702721/30 "2014-10-28T15:51:31Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Congress’ scorn for due process, not the IRS’. The IRS can’t vote _themselves_ extrajudicial powers. But the IRS can - and as noted above, obvious does - choose how to exercise the powers given by Congress. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-legality-of-an-irs-money-seizure/702721/31 "2014-10-28T16:01:58Z")
> [@Amateur\_Barbarian](#): > > Even with extreme cynicism (not misplaced in this discussion), I’d have trouble believing the IRS could get away with internal graft of this type. > > More likely. It’s just as nauseating, but not blatantly illegal. > > Of course it is. The Mafia’s activities are illegal and there is at least some continuing opposition and enforcement. FICA tax payments I made were stolen by an IRS agent. They didn’t inform me, as a matter of fact they sent a letter explaining the payment was made (I was too young to realize that was an alarm bell). Years later they came after me for those payments. Every one I talked to at the IRS had an excuse for why they couldn’t find out what happened, while they threatened to take everything I owned if I didn’t make up those funds. No prosecution of that agent ever occurred as far as I could tell. It ended up costing me a fortune. FICA payments can’t be written off, someone has to pay them the money, and as I found out later I was targeted because they knew I wouldn’t have the means to fight back. Even after everything was paid off they refused to lift a lien on my house when I sold it. I will say that one agent did come to my rescue. He was a pretty powerful guy who took care of billion dollar transactions on Wall St. and he stepped in to release the lien at the closing. He said what had happened to me was flat out wrong. Shortly after that Congress began to hold hearings about IRS abuses. They didn’t last long, plenty of abuse was swept under the carpet. It was after that when an tax attorney had finally uncovered the details of what happened to me. There are numerous cases on record of IRS employees stealing tax money, prosecutions are rare, recovery of the money even rarer. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-legality-of-an-irs-money-seizure/702721/32 "2014-10-28T16:21:27Z")
> [@davidmich](#): > > Hinders, who owns a small, cash-only Mexican restaurant, has not been charged with any crime and is not suspected of tax fraud. Well," small, cash-only Mexican restaurants" are often used to launder drug proceeds. > **[3 Ways Drug Cartels Launder Their Money, Right In Front Of You](https://www.mic.com/articles/60233/3-ways-drug-cartels-launder-their-money-right-in-front-of-you)** > > Drug cartels make millions of dollars annually on the black market. Where do they put it? As Walter White learned on Breaking Bad, it would look suspicious if he just opened a bank account and the cash flowed in. Instead, he laundered it. The… > **[How Mexican cartels launder drug money in San Antonio (Hint: Check the North...](https://johntedesco.net/blog/2012/04/19/how-mexican-cartels-launder-drug-money-in-san-antonio-hint-check-the-north-side/)** > > Express-News reporter Guillermo Contreras wrote a story detailing a federal investigation of two Mexican brothers: Mauricio and Alejandro Sánchez Garza. Federal officials allege the brothers laundered drug money in San Antonio for Mexican cartels. Where does a “small, cash-only Mexican restaurant” get that much cash in a short period? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-legality-of-an-irs-money-seizure/702721/33 "2014-10-28T16:23:00Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > WTF? My parents owned a restaurant and there were many weeks when they deposited much less than $10,000. Hell there were many weeks were they lost money and had to borrow. Its not the deposits under $10000. It’s taking MORE than 10000 and splitting it up so the deposits are under $10000, which sh admitted doing. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-legality-of-an-irs-money-seizure/702721/34 "2014-10-28T16:26:24Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Its not the deposits under $10000. It’s taking MORE than 10000 and splitting it up so the deposits are under $10000, which sh admitted doing. There was no underlying crime. She wasn’t required to pay a fine, instead they stole her money on the fiction that it was assets from criminal activity. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 4:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-legality-of-an-irs-money-seizure/702721/35 "2014-10-28T16:28:25Z")
> [@jtur88](#): > > Does a salaried IRS working-stiff agent get a bonus if he uncovers a case in which there is a seizure? You can always get to the truth by following the money. Nope, it’s strictly forbidden. IRS agents get more or less one bonus, a annual "sustained superior performance award’ which is about half a paycheck or 1/50th their annual salary. Salaries run about $60K for those with some seniority. So, maybe $1000, before taxes or $500 net. This bonus has nothing to do with any one seizure or act. There’s very little “money to follow” . ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-legality-of-an-irs-money-seizure/702721/36 "2014-10-28T16:33:10Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Where does a “small, cash-only Mexican restaurant” get that much cash in a short period? I’ma guessing chimichangas. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-legality-of-an-irs-money-seizure/702721/37 "2014-10-28T16:33:42Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Nope, it’s strictly forbidden. > > IRS agents get more or less one bonus, a annual "sustained superior performance award’ which is about half a paycheck or 1/50th their annual salary. Salaries run about $60K for those with some seniority. So, maybe $1000, before taxes or $500 net. This bonus has nothing to do with any one seizure or act. > > There’s very little “money to follow” . But there are always perks like a bigger office, quicker promotions and higher positions of power with more individual autonomy that come with raking in more money. A bigger paycheck isn’t necessarily the only thing driving employees to be “inventive”. ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 4:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-legality-of-an-irs-money-seizure/702721/38 "2014-10-28T16:35:14Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Where does a “small, cash-only Mexican restaurant” get that much cash in a short period? Ah, guilty of being brown. ---
**Author:** ![MostlyUseless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba8739/32.png) [@MostlyUseless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MostlyUseless)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-legality-of-an-irs-money-seizure/702721/39 "2014-10-28T16:40:52Z")
You’ve got the wrong color. Green is the color the IRS gives a shit about. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2014, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-legality-of-an-irs-money-seizure/702721/40 "2014-10-28T16:40:56Z")
> [@Si\_Amigo](#): > > Ah, guilty of being brown. That was\* their \*term. Where does any “small, cash-only restaurant” get that much cash in a short period? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-legality-of-an-irs-money-seizure/702721.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-legality-of-an-irs-money-seizure/702721.md?page=3)