# Please explain the Middle East crisis **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [July 21, 2006, 3:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-middle-east-crisis/365487 "2006-07-21T15:17:52Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-middle-east-crisis/365487/141 "2006-08-02T12:18:29Z")
That’s not how it works. That Israel currently buys armaments from the USA is not the issue. It has been asserted that if the relationship broke, then the arms purchases would stop. If cites are needed, that’s where. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 2, 2006, 1:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-middle-east-crisis/365487/142 "2006-08-02T13:54:58Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > It has been asserted that if the relationship broke, then the arms purchases would stop. That’s an overstatement. A reference was made to “loss” of purchases, not “complete cessation” (although it is a reasonable assumption that if there was a total breakdown in relations, arms sales would stop. We are not to my knowledge currently selling arms to Syria and Iran. If you want to stick with “No”, “So what” and other word games, so be it. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-middle-east-crisis/365487/143 "2006-08-03T08:27:29Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > So xtisme’s persuaded of the foolishness of making criticisms about writing style, and in such a few posts. 😛 Is THAT what you thought I was being critical about? Your writing style? No, it was the content free ‘no’ ‘so what’ responses silly! I’d be the LAST person on this board to criticize anyone about their writing style, punctuation or grammer my man…as my own is truely horrible. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 8:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-middle-east-crisis/365487/144 "2006-08-03T08:54:16Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > That’s an overstatement. A reference was made to “loss” of purchases, not “complete cessation” (although it is a reasonable assumption that if there was a total breakdown in relations, arms sales would stop. We are not to my knowledge currently selling arms to Syria and Iran. > > If you want to stick with “No”, “So what” and other word games, so be it. No, you are precisely and entirely incorrect. **Captain Amazing’s** reference was to: > [@](#): > > _…Loss of a market for both civilian and millitary goods…_ That does mean complete cessation, does it not? But that wouldn’t happen, would it. Both you and **CA** are mistaken. From your invaluable cite above: The two biggest purchasers of US armaments in the Near East are; Saudi Arabia and; Egypt. Neither of those is an ally of the US. What would displace Israel as the third largest purchaser, if the US was also unaligned to that country? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 12:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-middle-east-crisis/365487/145 "2006-08-03T12:50:43Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > The two biggest purchasers of US armaments in the Near East are; Saudi Arabia and; Egypt. Neither of those is an ally of the US. [Wrong](http://cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/2001/fyi/news/11/09/saudi.arabia/index.html) on [both](http://www.fas.org/asmp/campaigns/training/fpo_nea_all.html) counts. I suggest you return to this debate once you have taken the opportunity to correct your lack of knowledge on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![FRDE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e68b1a/32.png) [@FRDE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FRDE)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-middle-east-crisis/365487/146 "2006-08-03T13:15:52Z")
I get your point - the Saudi Government is friendly with the USA - and regretting the eviction of US troops The Egyptian Government has been friendly towards the USA, possibly since 1956, but definitely from about 1975 when the USA ‘bought’ peace and dignity. Both states suffer from a load of nutters that they would like to disappear overnight. The trouble is that peasants breed like rabbits … Hmm… Syria has the same problem - a sophisticated and educated ruling elite, trying to stay on top of a juvenile and easiliy fanaticized underclass, ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-middle-east-crisis/365487/147 "2006-08-03T15:37:45Z")
> [@Sam Stone](#): > > Are you kidding? You’re aware that Israel is only using a very tiny part of its military force against Lebanon, right? I know the media doesn’t portray it as such, but Israel has actually been very surgical in its bombings. > > You want to see what open warfare in the Middle East looks like? Go study the Iran/Iraq war. If Israel wanted, it could simply pummel Lebanon back into the stone age, killing hundreds of thousands. > > Israel could react to violence in Gaza the way Kuwait dealt with Palestinians - round up hundreds of thousands of them, and simply kick them out of the country. Or it could deal with them the way some Arab countries have dealt with their insurrectionist populations - Saddam killed hundreds of thousands of Shiites and Kurds to quiet them down. He destroyed the entire Marsh Arab culture. > > Israel could respond to terrorist bombings by rounding up and executing the terrorist’s entire extended family and friends. That’s also a favorite trick of dictators. > > Israel could respond to attacks from Hezbollah by firing missiles at Iran or Syria. Nukes, if it had to. > > Israel could send out assassination squads to start picking off leaders of countries antagonistic to them. > > Israel could decide to simply annex southern Lebanon, expel the indigenous people, and move in settlers. > > Israel could ethnically cleanse every Palestinian from its country and annex Gaza and the West Bank. > > Israel hasn’t done these things because A) unlike Iran and Syria, it’s a civilized nation that really wants peace and doesn’t want to kill people it doesn’t have to, and B) because with the U.S. at its back, its very existence is not currently threatened. > > Take away the U.S., make Israel’s situation more precarious, give the Arabs around it a little more reason to be aggressive, and suddenly you have a fight for Israel’s very existence. And under those circumstances, Israel will use every tool it has at its disposal to survive - including the 100 to 200 nuclear weapons it is reputed to have. Any country would do the same if faced with annihilation. Thank you for only killing half of us when your military might could have killed us all. Sometimes people just dont know what to be grateful for. Only blowing up half the roads and anfrastructure. Wow, what remarkable restraint. It is believed Israel has nukes. I am gtrateful the bomb hasnt been used. What biblical restraint they have shown. ---
**Author:** ![gum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/bbe5ce/32.png) [@gum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gum)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-middle-east-crisis/365487/148 "2006-08-03T15:46:01Z")
> [@Least Original User Name Ever](#): > > Thank you for only killing half of us when your military might could have killed us all. Sometimes people just dont know what to be grateful for. Only blowing up half the roads and anfrastructure. Wow, what remarkable restraint. It is believed Israel has nukes. I am gtrateful the bomb hasnt been used. What biblical restraint they have shown. Go complain to Mahmoud Ahmadinejad and his weapon delivery to Hezbollah. > **[Breaking News, World News and Video from Al Jazeera](https://www.aljazeera.com/)** > > News, analysis from the Middle East & worldwide, multimedia & interactives, opinions, documentaries, podcasts, long reads and broadcast schedule. > **[BBC NEWS | Middle East | Hezbollah missile threat assessed](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5242566.stm)** > > The BBC's Frank Gardner assesses the military and psychological impact as Hezbollah continues to fire rockets into Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e480ec/32.png) [@Least\_Original\_User\_Name\_Ever](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Least_Original_User_Name_Ever)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-middle-east-crisis/365487/149 "2006-08-03T16:46:46Z")
Go complain about Bushes emergency sending of bombs to israel. They are both obtaining outside weapons. Is there a point.Bush and Israel have much more fire power. It is shooting fish in a barrel. They are practically defenseless. The missles are like anti aircraft shells. They are not guided. Very few have done significant damage. Israel meanwhile has decimated cities. They are supposed to have warned civilians to leave. But if the roads, airports and bridges are gone its not so simple. Oh yes, Bush sent stromg sophisticated weaponry.Rumor says he gave bunker busters. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-middle-east-crisis/365487/150 "2006-08-03T17:05:38Z")
The KKK? Gas chambers? Genocide? Are you seriously saying that the Jews were any more persecuted than Christians in Palestine? Are you seriously trying to lay any blame for the holocaust at the feet of the Palestinians? WTF are you talking about? If we said that the Kurds were terribly persecuted and needed their own homeland to protect themselves from future genocide and we decided that the best place to put that homeland was to chop Israel in half and give it to the Kurds. Then the Kurds moved in and kicked you out, how would you feel? > [@Sam Stone](#): > > In much the same way that the KKK didn’t have much interest in lynching blacks - until they got ‘uppity’. As long as Jews were happy remaining occasionally-persecuted second class citizens, things were fine. But once they began asserting their rights and demanding their own homeland where they might protect themselves from future gas chambers and genocides, well, they just needed killin’, is all. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-middle-east-crisis/365487/151 "2006-08-03T17:31:44Z")
> [@col\_10022](#): > > If we said that the Kurds were terribly persecuted and needed their own homeland to protect themselves from future genocide and we decided that the best place to put that homeland was to chop Israel in half and give it to the Kurds. Then the Kurds moved in and kicked you out, how would you feel? I’d feel that you were using the same bit of discredited rhetoric that’s trotted out and torn to pieces time and time and time again in this forum. The land that was partitioned was partitioned along ethic majority lines. The Arab residents of the area, due to Turkish and British property laws, did not own much land at all. They did not have their territory ‘chopped in half’ and given to anybody, at all. So other than the fact that your analogy has nothing to do with actual history, it’s great. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-middle-east-crisis/365487/152 "2006-08-03T17:38:19Z")
> [@col\_10022](#): > > If we said that the Kurds were terribly persecuted and needed their own homeland to protect themselves from future genocide and we decided that the best place to put that homeland was to chop Israel in half and give it to the Kurds. Then the Kurds moved in and kicked you out, how would you feel? Actually, if the U.S. were to leave Iraq now, and the Kurds were to forge their own independent nation in Kurdistan, I say they should keep it - if they’re willing to fight for it. THAT would be a better analogy for what happened in 1948. As I’ve said a thousand times before, the British didn’t give anything to anybody. They just left. (Incidentally, **Sam** you should differentiate between Jews and Christians under Arab rule, and Jews and Christians unde Ottoman rule, which up until 1917 included Palestine. Say what you want about the Turks, they were one of the most egalitarian empires ever. Sure, you had to be a Muslim to get anywhere in public service, but other than that they left you alone). ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-middle-east-crisis/365487/153 "2006-08-03T19:08:09Z")
Unless you were Armenian I suppose… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-middle-east-crisis/365487/154 "2006-08-03T21:44:51Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > > [@Sevastopol](#): > > > > The two biggest purchasers of US armaments in the Near East are; Saudi Arabia and; Egypt. Neither of those is an ally of the US. > > [Wrong](http://cnnstudentnews.cnn.com/2001/fyi/news/11/09/saudi.arabia/index.html) on [both](http://www.fas.org/asmp/campaigns/training/fpo_nea_all.html) counts. > > I suggest you return to this debate once you have taken the opportunity to correct your lack of knowledge on the subject. Well that is just a flat out lie now isn’t it. It is your own cite provided earlier that shows the purchases by Saudi Arabia and Egypt. Yet in the face of evidence provided by your own self, you make a decision to lie about it? What’s up with that? I mean > [@Jackmannii](#): > > …You’ll note that Israel ranks third among nations in the region in purchases of arms and allied equipment and services from the United States. From your source: > [@](#): > > NEAR EAST > AGREEMENTS > 2003 > 1 Egypt $1.7 Billion > 2 Saudi Arabia $700 Million > 3 Israel $580 Million On the other hand, I clearly did understate the relationship between the US and SA & Egypt. Nonetheless that is a semantic quibble, unless you wish to argue that those allies hold an equivalent position to Israel from the US pov. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 3, 2006, 11:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-middle-east-crisis/365487/155 "2006-08-03T23:01:21Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Well that is just a flat out lie now isn’t it. It is your own cite provided earlier that shows the purchases by Saudi Arabia and Egypt. Yet in the face of evidence provided by your own self, you make a decision to lie about it? What’s up with that? It should be obvious, even to you, that the two links I provided were to refute your claim that Saudi Arabia and Egypt are not allies of the United States. I could add a variety of unflattering adjectives to describe the process of dismissing one’s blunders with the excuse that they are merely “semantic”. But it’s nice to see that at least on this occasion, you’re not anti-semantic. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 9:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-middle-east-crisis/365487/156 "2006-08-04T09:45:15Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > It should be obvious, even to you, that the two links I provided were to refute your claim that Saudi Arabia and Egypt are not allies of the United States. > > I could add a variety of unflattering adjectives to describe the process of dismissing one’s blunders with the excuse that they are merely “semantic”. > > But it’s nice to see that at least on this occasion, you’re not anti-semantic. 😃 Fortunately, the irony sense is highly tuned, otherwise I’d perceive a couple of insults in there, where profound esteem is intended. Flattering as all this is, the real issue is the losses to the US should the relationship with Israel terminate. We should return to that. Do you have anything to suggest that Israel would purchase fewer armaments? Not to get too particular with my words here, (although many of my best friends are semantic): That is, if the particular US/I relationship were to become on par with that of the US and say Saudi Arabia or Norway. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [August 4, 2006, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-middle-east-crisis/365487/157 "2006-08-04T15:35:01Z")
> [@Sevastopol](#): > > Do you have anything to suggest that Israel would purchase fewer armaments? Not to get too particular with my words here, (although many of my best friends are semantic): That is, if the particular US/I relationship were to become on par with that of the US and say Saudi Arabia or Norway. But the US/Israeli relationship is on par with the US/Saudi or US/Norway relationship. If anything, we have a closer military relationship, at least, with both Norway (mutual defense pact, through NATO) and Saudi Arabia (no formal defense pact, but until recently, US bases, and we defended the country during the first Gulf War) ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [August 5, 2006, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-middle-east-crisis/365487/158 "2006-08-05T11:01:16Z")
[Seems not.](http://www.palestinemonitor.org/factsheet/A%20breakdown%20of%20United%20States%20Aid%20to%20Israel.htm) Thanks **antechinus**. > [@](#): > > US aid to Israel > > … > \* > > ``` > The Israeli government is the largest recipient of US financial aid in the world. > * > > In 1997, the total of US grants and loan guarantees to Israel was USD 5.5 billion; ie, USD 15,068,493 per day. > > ``` > > From 1949 to 1998, the US government gave USD 84.8 billion in foreign aid and other US federation grants to Israel. This is more than it gave to all the countries of sub-Saharan Africa, Latin America, and the Caribbean put together, whose combined total population is 1,054,000,000. > … > A breakdown of United States Aid to Israel > … > > ``` > Military Aid > > ``` > > The United States provides direct and indirect military aid to Israel. FY 2001 funding requests relevant to Israel: > > Foreign Military Financing (FMF): grants to foreign governments financing the purchase of American made weapons, services and training. > > FMF Budget Request FY 2001: Total budget request: USD 3.54 billion > Budget request for Israel: 1.98 billion > Budget request for Egypt: 1.3 billion > Budget request for Jordan 75 million… > > Israel therefore receives 50% of the Foreign Military Financing budget request. > … ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2006, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-middle-east-crisis/365487/159 "2006-08-06T03:27:04Z")
An interesting source, **Sevastopol**. Unfortunately I could not find on the “About Us” page a single name of any person involved in running the site or gathering the information. The site is supposedly run by Palestinian non-governmental organizations, but none of the organizations are identified either. Can you clarify who these people are? If we knew, we might understand why they did not provide data (seen elsewhere in this and other threads) showing that U.S. military assistance and sales to Arab nations considerably exceeds that given to Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Sevastopol](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/cdc98d/32.png) [@Sevastopol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sevastopol)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2006, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-middle-east-crisis/365487/160 "2006-08-06T12:25:12Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > An interesting source, **Sevastopol**. Unfortunately I could not find on the “About Us” page a single name of any person involved in running the site or gathering the information. The site is supposedly run by Palestinian non-governmental organizations, but none of the organizations are identified either. Can you clarify who these people are? > > If we knew, we might understand why they did not provide data (seen elsewhere in this and other threads) showing that U.S. military assistance and sales to Arab nations considerably exceeds that given to Israel. My, aren’t you full of questions, which by the way I am always happy to answer. This is in stark contrast to the evasions my questions have met in this thread. With one or two exceptions, I do note. I took the source from a citation **antechinus** provided in the, stinger missile thread.(?) “_If we knew, we might understand why they did not provide data … showing that U.S. military assistance and sales to Arab nations considerably exceeds that given to Israel_.” Probably because it does not? Meantime, my own questions languish, unanswered. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-middle-east-crisis/365487.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-middle-east-crisis/365487.md?page=9)