# Please explain the purpose of "sniping" (ebay) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [September 1, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-purpose-of-sniping-ebay/552270 "2010-09-01T16:10:27Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-purpose-of-sniping-ebay/552270/121 "2010-11-29T00:34:21Z")
\ Resurrecting this thread because I’ve been the victim of bidsniping a few times recently, and it occurred to me what the problem is with all this logic of rational bidders and maximum values. I have no maximum value. Or rather; there’s no discrete point at which I flip from “willing” to “unwilling” to pay. My perception of value follows a fuzzy logic pattern, and generally if I’m willing to pay X, I’m willing to pay X + 2 cents. (Just as there is no X number of hairs where the removal of a single hair would cause a man to be reclassified from not-balding to balding). Anyway, I think auction sites should have some “defence” against sniping, such as extending the auctions by a couple minutes in the event of a late bid. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-purpose-of-sniping-ebay/552270/122 "2010-11-29T01:05:08Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > \ > > Resurrecting this thread because I’ve been the victim of bidsniping a few times recently, and it occurred to me what the problem is with all this logic of rational bidders and maximum values. > > I have no maximum value. Or rather; there’s no discrete point at which I flip from “willing” to “unwilling” to pay. > My perception of value follows a fuzzy logic pattern, and generally if I’m willing to pay X, I’m willing to pay X + 2 cents. > (Just as there is no X number of hairs where the removal of a single hair would cause a man to be reclassified from not-balding to balding). > > Anyway, I think auction sites should have some “defence” against sniping, such as extending the auctions by a couple minutes in the event of a late bid. You are the **perfect** buyer - you don’t know what something is worth to you, so you are willing to bid more than average price. Please bid on my items… ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-purpose-of-sniping-ebay/552270/123 "2010-11-29T03:17:39Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Anyway, I think auction sites should have some “defence” against sniping, such as extending the auctions by a couple minutes in the event of a late bid. Yeah, but then wouldn’t someone go in and snipe there? (If they’re watching, that is, not using a bot) ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-purpose-of-sniping-ebay/552270/124 "2010-11-29T03:28:53Z")
Gunbroker has such a system. IIRC, bidding closes 15 minutes after the last bid. ---
**Author:** ![OldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/3bc359/32.png) [@OldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/OldGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-purpose-of-sniping-ebay/552270/125 "2010-11-29T03:36:33Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Yeah, but then wouldn’t someone go in and snipe there? (If they’re watching, that is, not using a bot) Yes, but then a couple more minutes are added, etc. It’s impossible to bid in the last few seconds of an auction as the end is always at least 2,3,4 minutes or more after the last bid made. ---
**Author:** ![Darth\_Panda](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ee7513/32.png) [@Darth\_Panda](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darth_Panda)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-purpose-of-sniping-ebay/552270/126 "2010-11-29T04:10:05Z")
This thread isn’t really a zombie, despite the resurrect tag, but I like the idea of zombie snipers, and/or movies about them - whether they be real zombies with rifles, or auction bidders. I’m not sure how zombie sniping would would work, but I think it would be at least as interesting as snipe hunting. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 6:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-purpose-of-sniping-ebay/552270/127 "2010-11-29T06:29:32Z")
> [@Superfluous\_Parentheses](#): > > Sniping is for irrational people - who also tend to get angry when I point that out 🙂 > > If your perceived value of an item goes up after someone else has revealed to be willing to pay more for it than your original bid, then your original bid was incorrect, or, more likely, you’re letting yourself get suckered into paying more than you really want to. If you ALSO don’t want to deal with the resulting loss of self respect, you get sniping. > > Maybe an exception can be made for rare items that are extremely low priced - as in, don’t give anyone else the idea it might be worth much. But that still only works if everybody else is sniping too. No, it’s not. It’s a method of taking advantage of irrational people. People are more likely to impulse buy towards the end of the auction. If the price seems low, they are more likely to not put in the highest amount they are willing to spend. If you snipe, you can stop them. Plus, it allows them to think they’ve made a good bid. THe other way, they are immediately told that their bid did not go through. With sniping, they are not. You are cutting down the time they need to decide if it’s worth bidding more. It doesn’t have to have that big a return, either. If there’s even one auction where it would help, then it makes sense to use it. And I think most people think like Mijin.–If something goes for $2 more than what you bid, almost everyone will feel bad. People are lousy at figuring out the highest they will go. And, also, snipers make Mijin’s strategy a losing one for sellers. So you’d think sellers would want to get rid of snipers, too. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-purpose-of-sniping-ebay/552270/128 "2010-11-29T06:30:38Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > It is accurate. I can easily see at the end of each auction if the selling price after sniping is less than it would have been had I bid on Day 1, based on completed sales prices of identical items. It’s very easy to see where Day 1 bids drive the price up. All I was pointing out is that your premise was faulty, not that your conclusion was. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-purpose-of-sniping-ebay/552270/129 "2010-11-29T12:29:57Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > […] > And I think most people think like Mijin.–If something goes for $2 more than what you bid, almost everyone will feel bad. People are lousy at figuring out the highest they will go. > > And, also, snipers make Mijin’s strategy a losing one for sellers. So you’d think sellers would want to get rid of snipers, too. I want to sell my items. Having a couple of jacktards extend the auction by (possibly) days as they keep outbidding each other by a pittance does nto get the cah to my bank account any faster, and is not worht the hassle to me to get another two dollars for somethign I am already making a decent profit on. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-purpose-of-sniping-ebay/552270/130 "2010-11-29T14:00:13Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > You are the **perfect** buyer - you don’t know what something is worth to you, so you are willing to bid more than average price. Please bid on my items… So are you saying that the average price should be the limit of what someone should pay? I don’t think it is for most people, and not because they are irrational. There are other factors such as availability. Having to wait for a better priced item has a cost for me. And even if the average price were my maximum, it’s still not a discrete value, as it’s rare to know the average price to that precision. ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-purpose-of-sniping-ebay/552270/131 "2010-11-29T14:12:10Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > So are you saying that the average price should be the limit of what someone should pay? > I don’t think it is for most people, and not because they are irrational. There are other factors such as availability. Having to wait for a better priced item has a cost for me. > > And even if the average price were my maximum, it’s still not a discrete value, as it’s rare to know the average price to that precision. No, what I’m saying is: as a seller I **LOVE** people who become emotionally attached to an item, instead of doing research by searching “completed auctions,” then putting in their maximum bid and walking away. Those are the people who drive the price of items up past their historical average. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-purpose-of-sniping-ebay/552270/132 "2010-11-29T14:37:06Z")
> [@beowulff](#): > > Those are the people who drive the price of items up past their historical average. Fair enough. But I’m also saying that _rational_ buyers usually don’t have a specific maximum in mind. Let me try to put some numbers in to make it more clear. Let’s say I’m buying a car, and I know that the car and age that I want tend to go for around $4,500. However, if I bid $4,500, I would be disappointed to lose to a bid of $4,505, because those values aren’t appreciably different to me. Similarly if I bid $4,505, I would be disappointed to lose to a bid of $4,510, and so on. You may argue that this couldn’t continue on to infinity, and indeed it doesn’t. Eventually there comes a point where I am 100% happy to walk away: let’s say it’s at $5,300. So why don’t I bid (just below) that? Because at that price, while I’m still willing to buy (just), I would feel like I’ve got a lousy deal. Certainly I would not want to regularly buy items at this “true” maximum. Essentially, I don’t want to pay any money for anything. As an item increases in price from zero, my desire to buy decreases. But there is no precise point at which I flip from “happy to buy” to “happy to walk away”. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-purpose-of-sniping-ebay/552270/133 "2010-11-29T15:08:30Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Eventually there comes a point where I am 100% happy to walk away: let’s say it’s at $5,300. > So why don’t I bid (just below) that? > Because at that price, while I’m still willing to buy (just), I would feel like I’ve got a lousy deal. Why would you buy something at a price where you feel you got a lousy deal? The behavior that snipers exploit is that of the person who _knows_ he’s not willing to pay a penny more than $X for an item. But then someone bids $X+1. So then the person who _knew_ he wouldn’t pay more than $X reevaluates the situation, and the object suddenly becomes more valuable to him _only because there’s someone else who wants it too_. That’s what irrational. The sniper avoids triggering that behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Mijin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mijin/32/9369_2.png) [@Mijin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mijin)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-purpose-of-sniping-ebay/552270/134 "2010-11-29T16:21:07Z")
> [@CookingWithGas](#): > > Why would you buy something at a price where you feel you got a lousy deal? Maybe “lousy” was the wrong word. I’m saying that if there is a clear price at which one would not be prepared to do a deal, there is a price just below that at which one _reluctantly_ makes a deal. i.e. You’d still rather have the item than the money, but you feel like you’ve paid a high price. As I said, it’s the kind of price you would be unwilling to _frequently_ pay. > [@](#): > > The behavior that snipers exploit is that of the person who _knows_ he’s not willing to pay a penny more than $X for an item. But then someone bids $X+1. So then the person who _knew_ he wouldn’t pay more than $X reevaluates the situation, and the object suddenly becomes more valuable to him _only because there’s someone else who wants it too_. That’s what irrational. I don’t believe that’s true, and my car example was trying to show that. If we must depict the situation algebraically, put it this way: There is a point X up to which I am completely happy to buy There is a point Y after which I am completely happy to walk away I’m saying that the separation between X and Y is _not_ one bid increment. Indeed, I suspect that they’re separated by about 20% for most people. Snipers take advantage of the fact that most people are unwilling to regularly bid (Y - 1). ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-purpose-of-sniping-ebay/552270/135 "2010-11-29T16:44:03Z")
> [@Fotheringay-Phipps](#): > > 1. Suppose you are outbid by someone else, and go off and buy the product somewhere else. Then the lead bidder retracts his/her bid or is disqualified. Surprise - you are now the high bidder again and are obligated to buy it, even if you already bought another one somewhere else. If you don’t enter your bid until the end, you don’t have this issue. Obligated?! Are you sure about that? If you lose the auction, surely that’s it? ---
**Author:** ![beowulff](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/beowulff/32/542_2.png) [@beowulff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/beowulff)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 5:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-purpose-of-sniping-ebay/552270/136 "2010-11-29T17:10:47Z")
> [@Quartz](#): > > Obligated?! Are you sure about that? If you lose the auction, surely that’s it? Correct, at least for ebay. However they do allow sellers to make a [second-chance offer](http://pages.ebay.com/help/sell/second_chance_offer.html) in cases where the first bidder won’t honor his bid. ---
**Author:** ![CookingWithGas](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cookingwithgas/32/485_2.png) [@CookingWithGas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CookingWithGas)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-purpose-of-sniping-ebay/552270/137 "2010-11-29T17:31:34Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > I don’t believe that’s true, and my car example was trying to show that. [Sellers know what will get them the highest price](http://reviews.ebay.com/The-psychology-of-auctions-and-collectibles_W0QQugidZ10000000003201802). That article is an eBay seller advising other sellers, and is posted on the eBay site. > [@ryanandtash](#): > > …many bidders participate for the entertainment value, and that they my bid irrationally high because of the emotion and the competitive excitement. It may not be true for you but it’s true of most people who participate in auctions. ---
**Author:** ![bizerta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/3be4f8/32.png) [@bizerta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bizerta)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-purpose-of-sniping-ebay/552270/138 "2010-11-29T17:33:23Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Anyway, I think auction sites should have some “defence” [sic] against sniping, such as extending the auctions by a couple [of] minutes in the event of a late bid. That means that, if I want an item, I have to be at my computer at the time of the auction close. My time is too valuable to log on to eBay at the close of every auction. I don’t wish to get into a bidding frenzy IF YOU DON’T WANT TO BE SNIPED, THE BID THE MAX YOU ARE WILLING TO PAY. Most auctions last several days. You have plenty of time to think about your max price. If your max is really $120, don’t be sore if a sniper outbids you for $120.02. My snipes are always for an odd amount (such as $123.45). If I snipe for $123.45, then I really am not angry at the guy who bids $125. If the item was worth more that $125, then I should have bid higher. People who don’t snipe bid for a bargain and hope for a win (and are pissed when they don’t get it). Snipers bid for a win and hope for a bargain. Remember, if you bid $125 early in the auction, and I try and snipe you with a last-minute bid of $123.45, you’re still going to win. I don’t have enough time to up my bid. ---
**Author:** ![scr4](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/59ef9b/32.png) [@scr4](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scr4)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-purpose-of-sniping-ebay/552270/139 "2010-11-29T18:09:34Z")
> [@bizerta](#): > > People who don’t snipe bid for a bargain and hope for a win (and are pissed when they don’t get it). Snipers bid for a win and hope for a bargain. Not always true. The way I use a sniping service, I set bid for a bargain and hope for a win. (I set the max value to what I consider to be a great bargain. I usually don’t win, but when I do, I know it’s a bargain.) ---
**Author:** ![Buck\_Godot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/buck_godot/32/6573_2.png) [@Buck\_Godot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buck_Godot)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2010, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-purpose-of-sniping-ebay/552270/140 "2010-11-29T18:18:27Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Maybe “lousy” was the wrong word. > I’m saying that if there is a clear price at which one would not be prepared to do a deal, there is a price just below that at which one _reluctantly_ makes a deal. > > i.e. You’d still rather have the item than the money, but you feel like you’ve paid a high price. As I said, it’s the kind of price you would be unwilling to _frequently_ pay. > > I don’t believe that’s true, and my car example was trying to show that. > > If we must depict the situation algebraically, put it this way: > > There is a point X up to which I am completely happy to buy > There is a point Y after which I am completely happy to walk away > > I’m saying that the separation between X and Y is _not_ one bid increment. Indeed, I suspect that they’re separated by about 20% for most people. > > Snipers take advantage of the fact that most people are unwilling to regularly bid (Y - 1). As I suggested in my previous post #83, this point of uneasiness is precisely where you want to bid. You don’t feel to bad about losing, you don’t feel too bad about paying. If you have a hard time finding this point just imagine the 2 cent snipers and up your bid mentally until you reach the uneasiness fixed point and then make your bid. You don’t need actual real bidders to get you there. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-purpose-of-sniping-ebay/552270.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-the-purpose-of-sniping-ebay/552270.md?page=8)