# Please explain to me why this Trump/Ukraine thing is a big deal **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 22, 2019, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633 "2019-09-22T00:53:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Superdude](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/superdude/32/13450_2.png) [@Superdude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Superdude)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/81 "2019-09-23T21:04:56Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > Just being frank, I don’t know how much autonomy Biden had with Ukraine. In his CFR comments, he said “I was—not I, but it just happened to be that was the assignment I got. I got all the good ones. And so I got Ukraine.” [He’s been described as “the administration’s point-man on Ukraine” and “in charge of U.S. policy toward” Ukraine](https://www.politico.com/story/2019/09/21/trump-ukraine-biden-1507051). I don’t know the exact degree of personal latitude Biden was given to fulfill the Obama administration’s broader objectives. For example, it looks one way if Obama ordered Biden to specifically withhold the $1B until Shokin was removed, or do whatever is necessary to get him fired. It’s a bit different situation if Obama wanted Biden to fight corruption generally, and was prepared to support his decisions on the matter, and Biden chose to pursue that mandate by going to the mat for the firing of Shokin. I just don’t know how hands-on Obama was with the decision(s) regarding Ukraine. This is another one of those things about which I think there’s some uncertainty still. One inherent difference is that, even if Biden did so something inappropriate, he wasn’t doing it as a method of discrediting a potential campaign opponent. It’s one thing to try to protect your family. It’s something else entirely to do it as a means of keeping yourself in office. Biden’s son wasn’t running for PotUS. It attacks the integrity of the voting process to have a foreign power attempt to sway the election in your favor. ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/82 "2019-09-23T21:20:27Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > No, trust me, you hoodwinked everyone. You were asked about your feelings on Trump’s actions and you immediately pivoted to Biden’s. And the OP and others (but not everyone) took the bait. Bravo. I don’t think this is somehow disingenuous on HD’s part. If a president is convinced by evidence that former government officials committed crimes while dealing with a foreign power, and the foreign power attempted to cover it up, I think the president is perfectly within his power to withhold funds until demands for a fair investigation are met. The fact that the former government official happens to be a political rival is just coincidental. Of course, that narrative hinges upon the president actually getting real intelligence that crimes were committed, and not just pizza-gate level nonsense fed to someone easily persuaded by conspiracy theories. ---
**Author:** ![duality72](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duality72/32/3910_2.png) [@duality72](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/duality72)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2019, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/83 "2019-09-23T21:21:11Z")
> [@Fiddle\_Peghead](#): > > Did I take the bait? Was I hoodwinked? Whatever you want to call it, I responded to HD. I said what I wanted to in direct response to the OP, had nothing particularly pressing to say about other’s posts, so I addressed what I think was his erroneous idea that Biden was trying to help his son rather than do his regular duties as vice president. Fighting ignorance, and all of that. 😉 You should watch the video I linked above. The point is that you helped him change the subject by talking about what he wanted to talk about instead of the actual matter at hand. Jump to 3:12 to get right to the relevant part. ---
**Author:** ![Kiber](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kiber/32/317_2.png) [@Kiber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiber)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/84 "2019-09-24T14:08:50Z")
Ultimately - whatever people think Biden did is completely irrelevant to this issue. The issue here is that the President of the United States used our nations foreign policy not to advance the best interests of our country, but to advance his own personal best interests. Quite frankly, it’s astounding to me that this isn’t universally seen as a bad thing. I guess I should stop being so naive . . . ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/85 "2019-09-24T14:24:34Z")
> [@Kiber](#): > > Ultimately - whatever people think Biden did is completely irrelevant to this issue. The issue here is that the President of the United States used our nations foreign policy not to advance the best interests of our country, but to advance his own personal best interests. Quite frankly, it’s astounding to me that this isn’t universally seen as a bad thing. I guess I should stop being so naive . . . We’re shown, again and again, that millions of Americans value harming migrants, angering liberals, and other grievance-based values far, far more than “traditional” American values like patriotism, equality, common welfare, and even common decency. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 2:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/86 "2019-09-24T14:38:01Z")
> [@YamatoTwinkie](#): > > … If a president is convinced by evidence that former government officials committed crimes while dealing with a foreign power, and the foreign power attempted to cover it up, I think the president is perfectly within his power to withhold funds until demands for a fair investigation are met. … Two things: 1. What evidence? 2. An investigation… by a foreign country? Seriously?? ---
**Author:** ![Kiber](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kiber/32/317_2.png) [@Kiber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kiber)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/87 "2019-09-24T14:56:58Z")
If only we had a group that could investigate possible crimes committed by Americans. It’d probably need to be Federal so it could investigate Americans from any State. What to call this group? I don’t know - maybe Federal Group of Investigators, or FGI for short? I don’t know - the name needs work. But the idea is solid . . . ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 3:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/88 "2019-09-24T15:01:00Z")
There’s a group like that in Grand Theft Auto V. They call it the F.I.B. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/89 "2019-09-24T15:19:57Z")
> [@duality72](#): > > You should watch the video I linked above. The point is that you helped him change the subject by talking about what he wanted to talk about instead of the actual matter at hand. Jump to 3:12 to get right to the relevant part. Thanks for the link, but I’m well aware of this practice. In any case, if \*you \*choose to let someone get away with something you know, or seriously believe, to be false, fine. I don’t like to do that. Hence my response. And why is **HurricaneDitka** being singled out? I just took a cursory glance at the first page. It took me all of 30 seconds to see numerous other posts not directly related to the OP. Finally, these threads always go off on tangents. Keeps 'em interesting. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/90 "2019-09-24T15:36:02Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I mean, I get that it would take down any normal presidency, but I don’t understand why people seem to be treating this like a bigger deal than all the other very unusual stuff that has gone on with this administration. > > I’m trying very hard not to poison this well, but it seems like there has been some pretty obvious corruption, attempted obstruction of justice, election law violations, emoluments issues, personal enrichment (for example, removing some sanctions from a Chinese company right after the Chinese government makes a loan to the Trump organization), cozying up to dictators, throwing our allies under buses, ignoring congressional subpoenas, ignoring laws such as the requirement to cough up Trump’s tax returns to congress, and probably other stuff I’ve missed. Let’s just say that many norms have been violated, many things that would be lethal or nearly so to other administrations. > > What makes this Ukraine/Biden/Trump thing different? Is there any chance it will change the mind of any Trump supporter, either regular supporters or in Congress? Does any Trump supporter here think this is a thing? I haven’t read most of the other responses, but I think it’s a big deal because I think it’s going to push Pelosi to reluctantly pull the trigger on impeachment. From what I was reading earlier, she is on the brink now, and the pressure is to the point I don’t think she can refrain. Whether it amounts to anything is another matter, but the Dems will finally pull the trigger on it (assuming what I’ve read is correct) and that IS a big deal. And why this is different than all the other shady stuff he’s done. Think of this more like a camel, and this is not a straw but as a cinder block and the back breaking is Pelosi pulling the trigger on impeachment proceedings. Me, I think Trump has had his Nixon moment with this one. It might not seem like a big deal compared to all the other shady shit he and his administration has done, but it might be the final cinder block… ---
**Author:** ![Steve\_MB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/steve_mb/32/5339_2.png) [@Steve\_MB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Steve_MB)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 3:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/91 "2019-09-24T15:55:43Z")
> [@HurricaneDitka](#): > > This seems like a fairly classic case of two men (Kasko and Shokin) telling conflicting stories. One story is consistent with the conclusion of pretty much every significant Western government that the Ukranian prosecutor was corruptly slow-walking or outright squelching investigations; the other is consistent with… well, a few partisan hacks who rant about the Deep State dumping chemtrails that turn their grass brown. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/92 "2019-09-24T17:05:57Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > One story is consistent with the conclusion of pretty much every significant Western government that the Ukranian prosecutor was corruptly slow-walking or outright squelching investigations; the other is consistent with… well, a few partisan hacks who rant about the Deep State dumping chemtrails that turn their grass brown. This. On one side John Solomon wanted to give Sean Hannity a reason to invite him on his show so he made up a fairy tale about Ukraine. Rudy has been on this like a dog with a bone ever since. This story falls apart with even the slightest scrutiny and doesn’t even make sense if you believe everything they are claiming. On the other side we have facts and reality. The two sides are not remotely comparable in credibility. ---
**Author:** ![YamatoTwinkie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/cc9497/32.png) [@YamatoTwinkie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YamatoTwinkie)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/93 "2019-09-24T17:16:40Z")
> [@bobot](#): > > Two things: > > 1. What evidence? Might want to go back and re-read the post you were quoting from. ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/94 "2019-09-24T18:57:45Z")
[It’s a big enough deal to move Pelosi to “GO” on impeachment](https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/pelosi-impeachment-inquiry-announcement-all-but-confirm). ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/95 "2019-09-24T19:02:35Z")
Adam Schiff, 30 minutes ago: [We have been informed by the whistleblower’s counsel that their client would like to speak to our committee and has requested guidance from the Acting DNI as to how to do so. We‘re in touch with counsel and look forward to the whistleblower’s testimony as soon as this week.]([https://twitter.com/RepAdamSchiff/status/1176564220407767042](https://twitter.com/RepAdamSchiff/status/1176564220407767042)) ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/96 "2019-09-24T19:33:20Z")
How likely is it that Trump issues some kind of phony baloney privilege, and the whistleblower dummies up? ---
**Author:** ![Bone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bone/32/407_2.png) [@Bone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bone)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/97 "2019-09-24T19:37:31Z")
> [@steronz](#): > > And look how much we’re talking about Biden in a thread about an urgent and credible IG complaint against Trump that the administration is illegally blocking from congress. Well done, Ditka, you’ve completely hoodwinked everyone into playing your game. > [@duality72](#): > > [The Alt-Right Playbook: Control the Conversation](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CaPgDQkmqqM). > [@steronz](#): > > No, trust me, you hoodwinked everyone. You were asked about your feelings on Trump’s actions and you immediately pivoted to Biden’s. And the OP and others (but not everyone) took the bait. Bravo. Conversations are fluid. If you suspect there is a hijacking of a thread, report it rather than this type of actual hijacking. [/moderating] ---
**Author:** ![JohnT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnt/32/15048_2.png) [@JohnT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JohnT)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 7:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/98 "2019-09-24T19:48:21Z")
Jake Sherman, Politico: > [@](#): > > MCCONNELL has hotlined the resolution calling for the release of the whistleblower report. Schumer asking for unanimous consent for its passsage. > “Hotlining” is bypassing usual Senate rules. Here’s a definition: > [@](#): > > A strategic procedure carried out by Leadership and their Cloakrooms. There are a few situations in which Senate Leadership might hotline a bill-- the most common is that they want to move it quickly. In that case a member of Leadership asks their Cloakroom to leave an outgoing message for the Senate that the measure will be called up to pass without a vote (by Unanimous Consent). If a single Senator objects to the bill they can phone the Cloakroom clerk, register their objection, and the bill is stopped. Sometimes the Majority leader doesn’t really expect a bill to pass by Unanimous Consent but will hotline it anyway-- like a trial balloon to measure a bill’s support. > **[Twelve Stories: How Democracy Works Now | Glossary](https://www.howdemocracyworksnow.com/glossary/hotline)** > > A documentary series that looks at American democracy through the lens of immigration reform. So: 1. MoscowMitch is moving soon as to make sure the Repubs don’t break on this and he can get this voted down, or… 2. MoscowMitch is beginning the dance of separation Time will tell… ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/99 "2019-09-24T19:56:03Z")
Looks like my question is answered – this was the straw (or cinderblock :)) that broke the camel’s back. I guess it was the brazenness, the recency, and the obvious malfeasance that made it a winner for the House Democrats. Also, Barr didn’t have a chance to inoculate the public before the story blew up. ---
**Author:** ![Fiddle\_Peghead](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiddle_peghead/32/3506_2.png) [@Fiddle\_Peghead](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiddle_Peghead)\ **Post date:** [September 24, 2019, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/100 "2019-09-24T20:30:01Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > So: > > 1. MoscowMitch is moving soon as to make sure the Repubs don’t break on this and he can get this voted down, or… > > Time will tell… If I understand the implication of 1., MoscowMitch will hotline this so that another subhuman, er, Republican senator, can immediately object, thereby creating a delay so that the acting DNI director, Joseph Maguire, won’t have to worry about answering questions about it in his scheduled testimony on Thursday. Or am I off base? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633.md?page=6)