# Please explain to me why this Trump/Ukraine thing is a big deal **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [September 22, 2019, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633 "2019-09-22T00:53:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/163 "2019-09-27T21:00:48Z")
> [@JohnT](#): > > Just had a thought: > > Anybody think that from Putin’s viewpoint, seeing his puppet go rogue, trying to get his vig off a shipment of weapons sent to kill Putin’s expensive tanks and crews in alliance with Putin’s enemy… > > … you think Putin is pissed about this? How is this rogue? His puppet’s main purpose was to be able to create chaos and distrust in the American electorate and diminish the US’s reputation in the world. Mission Accomplished. The gains there far outweigh whatever’s happening from a military perspective. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/164 "2019-09-27T21:06:19Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > What’s amazing is how simple it all really is. This to me is one of the most troubling things. For all the talk of “Constitution”, “Nation of Laws”, “Check and Balances”, all it took is one lying, unscrupulous, sonofabitch to appeal to the worst demons of human nature, to jeopardize the entire Republic. It will probably survive, but not without scars that will last a generation. I just hope lessons will be learned. But I doubt it. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [September 27, 2019, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/165 "2019-09-27T22:35:45Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > This to me is one of the most troubling things. For all the talk of “Constitution”, “Nation of Laws”, “Check and Balances”, all it took is one lying, unscrupulous, sonofabitch to appeal to the worst demons of human nature, to jeopardize the entire Republic. It will probably survive, but not without scars that will last a generation. I just hope lessons will be learned. But I doubt it. That’s where we disagree, I don’t think we recover from Trump. His base will stick by him even though there is clear evidence he is corrupt. There will never again be a president that is acceptable to red and blue America. I think that the one thing that the Ukraine scandal will settle is that we are two different countries with different values and cultures. ---
**Author:** ![Gukumatz](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/74df32/32.png) [@Gukumatz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gukumatz)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2019, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/166 "2019-09-28T00:11:57Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > That’s where we disagree, I don’t think we recover from Trump. His base will stick by him even though there is clear evidence he is corrupt. There will never again be a president that is acceptable to red and blue America. I think that the one thing that the Ukraine scandal will settle is that we are two different countries with different values and cultures. So Team Red and Team Blue? It’d be interesting to guess how the schism will break down in terms of states, but I expect that’s another thread. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2019, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/167 "2019-09-28T01:27:22Z")
> [@Gukumatz](#): > > So Team Red and Team Blue? > > It’d be interesting to guess how the schism will break down in terms of states, but I expect that’s another thread. Pretty much. I think that Trump and the Ukraine scandal in particular, will put to rest the myth of America for good. ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2019, 1:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/168 "2019-09-28T13:30:58Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > That’s where we disagree, I don’t think we recover from Trump. His base will stick by him even though there is clear evidence he is corrupt. There will never again be a president that is acceptable to red and blue America. I think that the one thing that the Ukraine scandal will settle is that we are two different countries with different values and cultures. This, sadly, is how I feel. Even if Trump is impeached, removed from office and sent to federal sleepaway camp, we won’t suddenly find his millions of devotees dazed and blinking, asking “what… where am I? Did I do a bad thing?” ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [September 28, 2019, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/169 "2019-09-28T16:23:32Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > This, sadly, is how I feel. Even if Trump is impeached, removed from office and sent to federal sleepaway camp, we won’t suddenly find his millions of devotees dazed and blinking, asking “what… where am I? Did I do a bad thing?” Not to sound trite, but it’s like one of those internet memes, what color is the dress? or Do you hear Yanni or Laurel? Not only do the two sides not agree, they can’t possibly understand the other side’s point of view. Sadly, the one thing that I thought Biden offered was that he would be acceptable to a significant portion of Trump’s base. Before this blowup, he would have a legitimacy in the eyes of Trumpland in a way that no other Democrat could. Now, I think that is no longer possible. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/170 "2019-10-01T14:25:25Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > This to me is one of the most troubling things. For all the talk of “Constitution”, “Nation of Laws”, “Check and Balances”, all it took is one lying, unscrupulous, sonofabitch to appeal to the worst demons of human nature, to jeopardize the entire Republic. It will probably survive, but not without scars that will last a generation. I just hope lessons will be learned. But I doubt it. You’re talking about Clinton’s perjury, right? ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 2:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/171 "2019-10-01T14:30:00Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > You’re talking about Clinton’s perjury, right? I don’t agree that Clinton’s alleged perjury (he wasn’t convicted, right?) jeopardized the entire republic, but this really seems off-topic in a thread about why the Ukraine call was the last straw. ---
**Author:** ![Jonathan\_Chance](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jonathan_chance/32/701_2.png) [@Jonathan\_Chance](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jonathan_Chance)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/172 "2019-10-01T14:41:19Z")
Yes, it is. Stay on topic. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/173 "2019-10-01T14:42:43Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I don’t agree that Clinton’s alleged perjury (he wasn’t convicted, right?) jeopardized the entire republic, but this really seems off-topic in a thread about why the Ukraine call was the last straw. Because false equivalency is about all they have left at this point. Pretty pathetic I know, but there it is. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/174 "2019-10-01T15:04:58Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > That’s where we disagree, I don’t think we recover from Trump. His base will stick by him even though there is clear evidence he is corrupt. There will never again be a president that is acceptable to red and blue America. I think that the one thing that the Ukraine scandal will settle is that we are two different countries with different values and cultures. I believe they idolize him BECAUSE he is corrupt. They would love to skate around responsibilities and those pesky morals and ethics. But mostly, avoid the law. ---
**Author:** ![Horatius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/horatius/32/3572_2.png) [@Horatius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Horatius)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/175 "2019-10-01T18:00:29Z")
> [@Gukumatz](#): > > So Team Red and Team Blue? > > It’d be interesting to guess how the schism will break down in terms of states, but I expect that’s another thread. The thing is, it won’t break down “in terms of states”. The Second American Civil War, should it come to pass, will have a lot more in common with the civil wars in Yugoslavia and Rwanda than it will the first US Civil War. It won’t be North vs South or East vs. West or even Red Vs Blue. It will be one town vs another, one neighbourhood vs another. It won’t be large military trained forces meeting on the field of battle, it will be local ad-hoc militias taking it on themselves to “fix the X problem” by turning on their neighbours. Some people are of the opinion that we’re already in the first stags of such a war, with the various Nazi vs Anti-fa clashes, and right wing terrorists shooting up mosques, synagogues and Walmarts full of Hispanic people. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/176 "2019-10-01T20:37:08Z")
> [@Horatius](#): > > The thing is, it won’t break down “in terms of states”. The Second American Civil War, should it come to pass, will have a lot more in common with the civil wars in Yugoslavia and Rwanda than it will the first US Civil War. It won’t be North vs South or East vs. West or even Red Vs Blue. It will be one town vs another, one neighbourhood vs another. It won’t be large military trained forces meeting on the field of battle, it will be local ad-hoc militias taking it on themselves to “fix the X problem” by turning on their neighbours. > > Some people are of the opinion that we’re already in the first stags of such a war, with the various Nazi vs Anti-fa clashes, and right wing terrorists shooting up mosques, synagogues and Walmarts full of Hispanic people. Exactly. It will be Urban v. Rural. Inner city v. Suburbs. Educated v. Uneducated. Fact Based Reality v. Superstitious Conspiracy Theory. It won’t be pretty. ---
**Author:** ![madmonk28](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madmonk28/32/20811_2.png) [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)\ **Post date:** [October 1, 2019, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/177 "2019-10-01T21:51:41Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > I believe they idolize him BECAUSE he is corrupt. They would love to skate around responsibilities and those pesky morals and ethics. But mostly, avoid the law. That’s what I think, too. Trump behaves the way they would if they could: assault women, cover everything in tacky gold leaf, and troll the libs. As for Ukraine, could you imagine their reaction if Obama had done any of this? ---
**Author:** ![Fentoine\_Lum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/b77776/32.png) [@Fentoine\_Lum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fentoine_Lum)\ **Post date:** [October 6, 2019, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/178 "2019-10-06T21:35:47Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > I mean, I get that it would take down any normal presidency, but I don’t understand why people seem to be treating this like a bigger deal than all the other very unusual stuff that has gone on with this administration. > > I’m trying very hard not to poison this well, but it seems like there has been some pretty obvious corruption, attempted obstruction of justice, election law violations, emoluments issues, personal enrichment (for example, removing some sanctions from a Chinese company right after the Chinese government makes a loan to the Trump organization), cozying up to dictators, throwing our allies under buses, ignoring congressional subpoenas, ignoring laws such as the requirement to cough up Trump’s tax returns to congress, and probably other stuff I’ve missed. Let’s just say that many norms have been violated, many things that would be lethal or nearly so to other administrations. > > What makes this Ukraine/Biden/Trump thing different? Is there any chance it will change the mind of any Trump supporter, either regular supporters or in Congress? Does any Trump supporter here think this is a thing? I think we might have to look at all of our parts in this dysfunctional society. Who howled when Obama took Bush’s 2 wars to 7? We had kids in cages separated from parents at the border then too. We’ve plenty of examples of unprosecuted war criminals and “the law” violating “the law”. Trump is a symptom of a society predicated upon an illusion. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/179 "2019-10-07T02:00:16Z")
> [@Fentoine\_Lum](#): > > I think we might have to look at all of our parts in this dysfunctional society. Who howled when Obama took Bush’s 2 wars to 7? We had kids in cages separated from parents at the border then too. We’ve plenty of examples of unprosecuted war criminals and “the law” violating “the law”. Trump is a symptom of a society predicated upon an illusion. Can you describe what the heck this has to do with the subject of the OP? It seems like an off-topic rant against, I don’t know, America? Something? ---
**Author:** ![VinylTurnip](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b2d939/32.png) [@VinylTurnip](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/VinylTurnip)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 12:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/180 "2019-10-07T12:36:19Z")
> [@RitterSport](#): > > Can you describe what the heck this has to do with the subject of the OP? It seems like an off-topic rant against, I don’t know, America? Something? _R’s do it, D’s do it Even independent v.'s, do it_ If you google the name, you may notice a theme… ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 12:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/181 "2019-10-07T12:44:31Z")
Thanks for that. Since the last couple of times this thread was resurrected, it was for partisan potshots (not you VT!), and I already have my answer, I’m going to report my own post and ask for this to be closed. ---
**Author:** ![Ulfreida](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ulfreida/32/8014_2.png) [@Ulfreida](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulfreida)\ **Post date:** [October 7, 2019, 12:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633/182 "2019-10-07T12:45:25Z")
> [@VinylTurnip](#): > > _R’s do it, D’s do it > Even independent v.'s, do it_ > > If you google the name, you may notice a theme… Except they don’t. Otherwise you are correct. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-explain-to-me-why-this-trump-ukraine-thing-is-a-big-deal/840633.md?page=10)