# Please Factually Evaluate These Comments **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [February 18, 2005, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-factually-evaluate-these-comments/290758 "2005-02-18T18:21:13Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-factually-evaluate-these-comments/290758/1 "2005-02-18T18:21:13Z")
I know this could be thought to teeter on the brink of being an “IMHO” post, but I really just want to know the facts here. Please evaluate the following comments: "I have heard in the past that the Americans supported Osama Bin Laden and his fundamentalist extremists during the Soviet invasion in Afghanistan in 1979 (the irony being that now somebody we gave money to is attacking us). This is incorrect; there were two groups of opposition to the Soviet invasion, native Afghanis and transplanted fundamentalists like Bin Laden who went in and waged their own war against the Soviets. The Americans supported the native Afghanis only. Bin Laden et al never got any support. Similarly, during Iran-Contra, we hear how Reagan’s administration sold arms to the Iranians and used the money to fund the Contras in Central America. Again, this is incorrect. The Reagan administration supported an Israeli group that was supporting another group that was planning on taking power in Iran after the current Iranian government fell (or something like that – the point is that it didn’t happen the way that Reagan’s critics say it did). So, when I hear that America supported Saddam before 1991, my suspicion-detector starts going off." -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Duckster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/duckster/32/1244_2.png) [@Duckster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duckster)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-factually-evaluate-these-comments/290758/2 "2005-02-18T18:33:23Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > So, when I hear that America supported Saddam before 1991, my suspicion-detector starts going off."-FrL- Would this suffice? [Shaking Hands with Saddam Hussein](http://www2.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/) ---
**Author:** ![Rufus\_Xavier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@Rufus\_Xavier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rufus_Xavier)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-factually-evaluate-these-comments/290758/3 "2005-02-18T19:33:14Z")
Actually Iran/Contra happened exactly the way “reagan’s critics” say it did. [http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/walsh/](http://www.fas.org/irp/offdocs/walsh/) [http://www.webcom.com/pinknoiz/covert/stip.html](http://www.webcom.com/pinknoiz/covert/stip.html) ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-factually-evaluate-these-comments/290758/4 "2005-02-18T20:10:33Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > Similarly, during Iran-Contra, we hear how Reagan’s administration sold arms to the Iranians and used the money to fund the Contras in Central America. Again, this is incorrect. The Reagan administration supported an Israeli group that was supporting another group that was planning on taking power in Iran after the current Iranian government fell (or something like that – the point is that it didn’t happen the way that Reagan’s critics say it did).-FrL- That has already been refuted, but I just want to add that this is an example of antisemitic propaganda promulgated in many circles. Blame Israel for everything that’s wrong with the world. It is that philosopy that led to the Holocaust. ---
**Author:** ![Rufus\_Xavier](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/eada6e/32.png) [@Rufus\_Xavier](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rufus_Xavier)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-factually-evaluate-these-comments/290758/5 "2005-02-18T20:49:20Z")
The Bin Laden comments are not as easily debunked, however, it’s reasonable to believe that the anti-Soviet organization he helped found, did receive American funds indirectly through Pakistan’s ISI agency. > **[Maktab al-Khidamat](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maktab_al-Khadamat)** > > The Maktab al-Khidamat, also Maktab Khadamāt al-Mujāhidīn al-'Arab (Arabic: مكتب الخدمات or مكتب خدمات المجاهدين العرب, MAK), also known as the Afghan Services Bureau, was founded in 1984 by Abdullah Azzam, Wa'el Hamza Julaidan, Osama bin Laden and Ayman al-Zawahiri to raise funds and recruit foreign mujahidin for the war against the Soviets in Afghanistan. MAK became the forerunner to al-Qaeda and was instrumental in creating the fundraising and recruitment network that benefited Al-Qaeda durin... > **[MSNBC News - Breaking News and News Today | Latest News](https://www.msnbc.com/)** > > MSNBC breaking news and the latest news for today. Get daily news from local news reporters and world news updates with live audio & video from our team. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-factually-evaluate-these-comments/290758/6 "2005-02-18T21:11:06Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > That has already been refuted, but I just want to add that this is an example of antisemitic propaganda promulgated in many circles. Blame Israel for everything that’s wrong with the world. It is that philosopy that led to the Holocaust. I don’t think it’s anti-semetic propaganda to say that there was an Israeli role in Iran-Contra, because, as the independant counsel report said, there was an Israeli role in Iran-Contra. As the independant counsel report said: > [@](#): > > McFarlane met at the White House on July 3, 1985, with David Kimche, director general of the Israeli Foreign Ministry. McFarlane later testified that Kimche raised the possibility of a renewed political dialogue between the United States and Iran. According to Kimche, Iranians who had been in contact with Israel would show their good faith by using their influence over radical groups in Lebanon to obtain the release of American hostages. These Iranians would expect a reciprocal show of good faith from the United States – most likely in the form of military equipment And the Israelis were active as middlemen for the missile sales to Iran. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-factually-evaluate-these-comments/290758/7 "2005-02-18T21:42:46Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > "I have heard in the past that the Americans supported Osama Bin Laden and his fundamentalist extremists during the Soviet invasion in Afghanistan in 1979 (the irony being that now somebody we gave money to is attacking us). This is incorrect; there were two groups of opposition to the Soviet invasion, native Afghanis and transplanted fundamentalists like Bin Laden who went in and waged their own war against the Soviets. The Americans supported the native Afghanis only. Bin Laden et al never got any support. [Wrong.](http://www.newhumanist.com/osama.html) > [@](#): > > [CIA chief William] Casey committed CIA support to a long-standing ISI (Pakistan’s Inter-Services Intelligence)initiative to recruit radical Muslims from around the world to come to Pakistan and fight with the Afghan Mujaheddin. > > …Among these thousands of foreign recruits was a young Saudi student, Osama Bin Laden, the son of a Yemeni construction magnate, Mohammed Bin Laden, who was a close friend of the late King Faisal and whose company had become fabulously wealthy on the contracts to renovate and expand the Holy Mosques of Mecca and Medina. The ISI had long wanted Prince Turki Bin Faisal, the head of Istakhbarat, the Saudi Intelligence Service, to provide a Royal Prince to lead the Saudi contingent in order to show Muslims the commitment of the Royal Family to the jihad. Only poorer Saudis, students, taxi drivers and Bedouin tribesmen had so far arrived to fight. But no pampered Saudi prince was ready to rough it out in the Afghan mountains. Bin Laden, although not a royal, was close enough to the royals and certainly wealthy enough to lead the Saudi contingent. Bin Laden, Prince Turki and General Gut were to become firm friends and allies in a common cause. > > …His father backed the Afghan struggle and helped fund it, so when Bin Laden decided to join up, his family responded enthusiastically. He first traveled to Peshawar in 1980 and met the Mujaheddin leaders, returning frequently with Saudi donations for the cause until 1982, when he decided to settle in Peshawar. He brought in his company engineers and heavy construction equipment to help build roads and depots for the Mujaheddin. In 1986, he helped build the Khost tunnel complex, which the CIA was funding as a major arms storage depot, training facility and medical center for the Mujaheddin, deep under the mountains close to the Pakistan border. > > _–Ahmed Rashid, Pakistan, Afghanistan and Central Asia correspondent for the_ Far Eastern Economic Review _and_ The Daily Telegraph of London I suspect whoever gave you the original “The US never sponsored Bin Laden” quote will try to split hairs by saying the US never supported him firsthand, but it seems very clear-cut to me – the CIA supported the ISI’s recruit-radical-Muslems initiative, and Osama was a prize catch of said initiative. ---
**Author:** ![barbitu8](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/839c29/32.png) [@barbitu8](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/barbitu8)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-factually-evaluate-these-comments/290758/8 "2005-02-18T21:51:16Z")
> [@Captain Amazing](#): > > I don’t think it’s anti-semetic propaganda to say that there was an Israeli role in Iran-Contra, because, as the independant counsel report said, there was an Israeli role in Iran-Contra. There’s a world of difference between “Israeli role” and “an Israeli group that was supporting another group that was planning on taking power in Iran after the current Iranian government fell…” ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [February 18, 2005, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-factually-evaluate-these-comments/290758/9 "2005-02-18T22:06:17Z")
> [@barbitu8](#): > > There’s a world of difference between “Israeli role” and “an Israeli group that was supporting another group that was planning on taking power in Iran after the current Iranian government fell…” I don’t see any difference between the two that would make think that one could be an anti-semitic comment while the other is not. And I don’t see how it is anti-semitic to say anything fairly paraphrased as “some people who are citizens of the nation of Israel did something I disapprove of.” I disapprove of what some people who are citizens of the nation of America are doing as well–namely, I disapprove of many of the administration’s actions–but does this make me “anti-american?” Especially, does this make me “anti-american” in a sense which justifies grouping me w/ people who think American nationals are a bad sort of person just because they are American nationals? Of course not. -FrL-