# Please help me find this precedent (Nazis, occupation w/o a garrison force) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [December 16, 2011, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-find-this-precedent-nazis-occupation-w-o-a-garrison-force/606388 "2011-12-16T06:34:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-find-this-precedent-nazis-occupation-w-o-a-garrison-force/606388/1 "2011-12-16T06:34:09Z")
This is driving me nuts, and I can’t for the life of me remember wtf the country was or what the trial was that set the precedent. IIRC, the basic outline was: the Nazis had invaded and taken control of a country during WWII. They carried out brutal acts and were in violation of the laws and/or international customs of war due to their treatment of prisoners. They claimed, however, that since they didn’t have a garrison force there that they weren’t actually occupying the country. The verdict which came down, however, said that it was the capacity to affect control over an area that typified occupation, not whether or not troops were stationed there at that moment. I’ve searched online but I can find fuck-all. Any ideas? ---
**Author:** ![Shakester](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shakester/32/437_2.png) [@Shakester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shakester)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-find-this-precedent-nazis-occupation-w-o-a-garrison-force/606388/2 "2011-12-16T07:21:44Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > This is driving me nuts, and I can’t for the life of me remember wtf the country was or what the trial was that set the precedent. > > IIRC, the basic outline was: the Nazis had invaded and taken control of a country during WWII. They carried out brutal acts and were in violation of the laws and/or international customs of war due to their treatment of prisoners. They claimed, however, that since they didn’t have a garrison force there that they weren’t actually occupying the country. The verdict which came down, however, said that it was the capacity to affect control over an area that typified occupation, not whether or not troops were stationed there at that moment. > > I’ve searched online but I can find fuck-all. > > Any ideas? [Austria?](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anschluss#Anschluss:_annexation_or_union.3F) ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-find-this-precedent-nazis-occupation-w-o-a-garrison-force/606388/3 "2011-12-16T07:28:05Z")
Hrm… thanks, but unless I’m wildly misremembering, I don’t think that’s it. IIRC they didn’t attempt to annex the territory, just ruled over it a bit. ---
**Author:** ![RealityChuck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/realitychuck/32/195_2.png) [@RealityChuck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RealityChuck)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-find-this-precedent-nazis-occupation-w-o-a-garrison-force/606388/4 "2011-12-16T12:33:06Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > Hrm… thanks, but unless I’m wildly misremembering, I don’t think that’s it. IIRC they didn’t attempt to annex the territory, just ruled over it a bit. By the time WWII started, Austria was already annexed into Germany. Thus, no war with Austria and no garrison. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-find-this-precedent-nazis-occupation-w-o-a-garrison-force/606388/5 "2011-12-16T12:37:54Z")
Yes, but whether they annexed the territory before or after WWII isn’t quite the point, since IIRC they didn’t try to annex the territory at all, pre, post or during WWII. ---
**Author:** ![Mops](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mops/32/16494_2.png) [@Mops](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mops)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-find-this-precedent-nazis-occupation-w-o-a-garrison-force/606388/6 "2011-12-16T13:48:17Z")
> [@FinnAgain](#): > > … > > IIRC, the basic outline was: the Nazis had invaded and taken control of a country during WWII. They carried out brutal acts and were in violation of the laws and/or international customs of war due to their treatment of prisoners. They claimed, however, that since they didn’t have a garrison force there that they weren’t actually occupying the country. … Never came across a mention of such an issue either. What would have been the purpose of raising that legal point anyway? Not formally occupying a territory is not a defence against the charge of having committed war crimes there. Nazi Germany did commit war crimes on the territory of non-occupied countries (fellow members of the Tripartite pact, i.e. allied countries like Bulgaria, Romania etc.) and I have never heard that this was raised as a legal defence after the war. ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 16, 2011, 2:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-find-this-precedent-nazis-occupation-w-o-a-garrison-force/606388/7 "2011-12-16T14:36:18Z")
Ah, my brain started working again. It was the Hostages Trial. ---
**Author:** ![Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7cd45c/32.png) [@Elendil\_s\_Heir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elendil_s_Heir)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 4:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-find-this-precedent-nazis-occupation-w-o-a-garrison-force/606388/8 "2011-12-17T04:50:37Z")
Never heard of that before, but here it is: [Hostages Trial - Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hostages_trial) See esp. the section “Clarification of military occupation.” ---
**Author:** ![FinnAgain](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/finnagain/32/12500_2.png) [@FinnAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FinnAgain)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2011, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-find-this-precedent-nazis-occupation-w-o-a-garrison-force/606388/9 "2011-12-17T06:06:04Z")
Yeep, that’s what I was thinkin’ of.