# Please help me rebut this anti-muslim Email. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 8, 2010, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391 "2010-06-08T04:14:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/61 "2010-06-09T17:17:23Z")
I take it that you have personally attended many of these mosques? ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/62 "2010-06-09T17:17:30Z")
He might also have mentioned the number of illegal genital mutilations performed on Muslim female infants in the US or by Muslim parents who have their daughters fixed “back home” . . . no wait, I guess that wouldn’t be politically correct.:rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/63 "2010-06-09T17:20:23Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > I take it that you have personally attended many of these mosques? Well of course I have. I take jets around the world every Friday and although I am a Kaffir I enter Mosques and listen to what is being said in languages I do not understand. How else could a person have information on the fact that “Death to America, Death to Israel” is frequently chanted in Mosques all over the world? ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/64 "2010-06-09T17:28:49Z")
> [@Malthus](#): > > I dunno. As you cite states, the version actually ratified by the US has that text in it. > > I would have thought that the more significant critique would be that article 11 is clearly a bit of puffery designed to make the treaty more acceptable - remembering that the context was to pacify slave-taking Muslim predator nations with a dollop of dollars as ‘danegeld’ (rhyme!) - and so does not really represent any sort of actual official position of the US vis. Islam or religion generally. That’s where I’d put my money. But there are significant questions regarding different translations. Either way, the statement is patently false. My guess is that the ratifiers said, “Will this language satisfy those assholes, fine. If it’ll help to add some puffery about how we have Muslim unicorns in our forests that can spout the Koran, throw that in there, too.” The pirates had already proven to not live up to their word, so fuck 'em. Whatever it takes. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/65 "2010-06-09T17:45:33Z")
Watch this CNN report [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T7eQyah4qU&playnext\_from=TL&videos=pA0HnbIlVqM&feature=grec\_index](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6T7eQyah4qU&playnext_from=TL&videos=pA0HnbIlVqM&feature=grec_index)This is about the situation in the UK. It is not the situation in the US. Yet. As Winston Churchill said, “An appeaser is someone who feeds the crocodile, hoping it will eat him last.” ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/66 "2010-06-09T17:46:33Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > Eh. So what, there’ nutter Christians who can use the Bible in the same manner. > . You’d be hard pressed to find examples of even a backwater Christian clergyman in the US espousing violence. The craziest one I can think of is Phelps and beyond being an evil jackass he’s physically harmless. Contrast this to The Imam at the mosque attended by the Ft. Hood shooter. You have a conduit to Islam (as practiced in the Middle East) where religious doctrine overtly promotes violence. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/67 "2010-06-09T17:52:48Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > That’s where I’d put my money. But there are significant questions regarding different translations. … Leaving aside the intra-American religious debate, digging deeper many of the most notorious of said pirates were actually Christian (European) renegades with … I should think distinctly commercial reasons for their piracy, opportunistic conversations aside. > [@Valteron](#): > > He might also have mentioned the number of illegal genital mutilations performed on Muslim female infants in the US or by Muslim parents who have their daughters fixed “back home” . . . no wait, I guess that wouldn’t be politically correct.:rolleyes: You should save your rolleyes as genital mutilation is a black African thing - lots of African pagans and Christians do it too. It’s a fair bit of ignorant bigotry to trot this out. > [@Valteron](#): > > Well of course I have. I take jets around the world every Friday and although I am a Kaffir I enter Mosques and listen to what is being said in languages I do not understand. How else could a person have information on the fact that “Death to America, Death to Israel” is frequently chanted in Mosques all over the world? So, in fact you know fuck all about what you’re wanking on about. In fact, as a non-Muslim you can happily trot into just about any given mosque in Turkey and West Africa and chill out. Same in Egypt, where I have holidayed. At least in Africa I can understand the preaching since they often do it in English or French. Queer, haven’t had much exposure to anti American ranting myself, but then perhaps I have the wrong nationality. Otherwise, broad brush ranting against entire religions I dare say is more Pit than GD, in particular when the person clearly knows fuck all. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/68 "2010-06-09T18:08:31Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > He might also have mentioned the number of illegal genital mutilations performed on Muslim female infants in the US or by Muslim parents who have their daughters fixed “back home” . . . no wait, I guess that wouldn’t be politically correct. More importantly, it wouldn’t be especially relevant to the topic of Islam in particular. Female genital cutting is an ancient tradition originating in some African societies, and spreading elsewhere in Africa and West Asia, thousands of years before the emergence of Islam. It is now practiced by various Muslim, Christian, and animist cultures all over the world, but the majority of Muslims do not practice FGM, and it is legally prohibited in most Muslim-majority nations. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/69 "2010-06-09T18:13:12Z")
**Valteron** , if you’re a liberal, ur doin it rong. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/70 "2010-06-09T18:13:38Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > That’s where I’d put my money. But there are significant questions regarding different translations. Either way, the statement is patently false. What’s false about it? The United States is, in fact, not founded in any way, shape, form or fashion on the Christian religion or any other religion. The writings of the Founders and the Constitution itself back that up clearly. What are you alleging is false about that? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/71 "2010-06-09T18:14:46Z")
Yes, FGM is a regional, cultural practice, not a Muslim one. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/72 "2010-06-09T18:34:42Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > **Valteron** , if you’re a liberal, ur doin it rong. I have always been a liberal and a leftist, and I still am in terms of issues like medicare, social programs etc. But as a gay person, I have been sold down the fucking river in the name of political correctness by liberal-left apologhists for the the Islamofascists who consider the death penalty or severe prison sentences for being gay (or honour killings by the family and community in states like Jordan) to be a delightful aspect of multiculturalism that we have to accept in our Muslim brothers and sisters. :rolleyes: Not to mention the oppression of women, imposed puritanical laws on sexual behaviour, no more separation of Church and State, and a thousand other goodies Ilsam has to offer. ---
**Author:** ![Valteron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f17d59/32.png) [@Valteron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Valteron)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/73 "2010-06-09T18:38:00Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Yes, FGM is a regional, cultural practice, not a Muslim one. Perhaps you should read “Infidel” by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, an apostate from Islam who was genitally mutilated at 5. Tell her it has nothing to do with the religion and the disgust for sex and for female sexuality that the ideology engenders. Perhaps you should examine the frequency with which it is done and continues to be done in Muslim states. The fact that it did not originate with Islam and that it is not exclusive to Islam are details. Stoning and flogging people existed before Islam as well, for that matter. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/74 "2010-06-09T18:44:53Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > The fact that it did not originate with Islam and that it is not exclusive to Islam are details. Not if you’re trying to make the case that FGM is somehow a specially Islamic practice. It isn’t, even if the minority of Muslims who practice it try to justify it by claiming that Islam requires it. > [@Valteron](#): > > Stoning and flogging people existed before Islam as well, for that matter. And they are still practiced in non-Islamic societies (for instance, Singapore). If you were trying to pretend that flogging was a specifically Islamic practice, you’d be wrong about that too. And in any case, none of your generic Islamophobic criticisms have anything to do with the actual topic of this thread, which is a discussion of the role of Muslims in American history and the proper response to receiving bigoted email spam from co-workers concerning the role of Muslims in America’s history. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/75 "2010-06-09T18:49:25Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Perhaps you should read “Infidel” by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, an apostate from Islam who was genitally mutilated at 5. Why? Doesn’t change the objective facts that genital cutting is pretty much a black African thing and prevalent among non-Muslim groups. Pretty much has fuck all to do with Islam. Rather like an Orthodox Christian apostate writing a screed about the evils of Icons and generalising to all Christianity… If she shows the level of logic that is shown in this response, the only thing I will learn is that lack of coherent logic and rational argument also extends to apostates. > [@](#): > > Perhaps you should examine the frequency with which it is done and continues to be done in Muslim states. Perhaps you should, and perhaps you should keep Pit Rants in the Pit. > [@](#): > > The fact that it did not originate with Islam and that it is not exclusive to Islam are details. That is, Facts Be Damned, I hate me Islam! Again, this is not GD material. [quoteStoning and flogging people existed before Islam as well, for that matter.[/QUOTE] And? > [@Valteron](#): > > . But as a gay person, I have been sold down the fucking river in the name of political correctness by liberal-left apologhists for the the Islamofascists who consider the death penalty or severe prison sentences for being gay (or honour killings by the family and community in states like Jordan) to be a delightful aspect of multiculturalism that we have to accept in our Muslim brothers and sisters. :rolleyes: You live in Canada right? Well then you’re not in real fear of your life, and I do believe hysteric recreational outrage rants are meant to be posted in the Pit, eh right? > [@](#): > > Not to mention the oppression of women, imposed puritanical laws on sexual behaviour, no more separation of Church and State, and a thousand other goodies Ilsam has to offer. Pit Rant, how can one even respond to this? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/76 "2010-06-09T18:51:14Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > But as a gay person, I have been sold down the fucking river in the name of political correctness by liberal-left apologhists for the the Islamofascists who consider the death penalty or severe prison sentences for being gay (or honour killings by the family and community in states like Jordan) to be a delightful aspect of multiculturalism that we have to accept in our Muslim brothers and sisters. There are essentially no liberals and leftists who consider Islamic oppression of homosexuals to be “a delightful aspect of multiculturalism”. Your statement to that effect is completely false. You can be opposed to Islamist oppression of homosexuals, and speak out in favor of stronger opposition to it on the part of Western societies, without resorting to hysterical Islamophobic bigotry across the board. In fact, you would probably serve your cause more effectively if you came across as a rational and principled opponent of the injustices of Islamist-extremist radicalism, rather than as a vindictive knee-jerk Muslim-hater who simply uses Islamist oppression of homosexuals as an excuse to condemn Muslims in general. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/77 "2010-06-09T18:53:52Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Perhaps you should read “Infidel” by Ayaan Hirsi Ali, an apostate from Islam who was genitally mutilated at 5. Tell her it has nothing to do with the religion. It has nothing to do with the religion. The cultures which practice it practiced it before they were Muslim. Most Muslim cultures do NOT practice it. It’s not in the Koran. It’s not a religious practice or rite. It’s a regional, cultural artifact. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/78 "2010-06-09T18:54:01Z")
**Valteron** , you arguably started out on topic, but at this point you’re pretty far off base. Rein it in. [You already have a thread in the Pit about Muslims](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=566263); if you want to rant about them and against multiculturalism, do it in that thread. Everyone debating against **Valteron** is encouraged to let this go so the thread can get back on track. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/79 "2010-06-09T19:05:54Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What’s false about it? The United States is, in fact, not founded in any way, shape, form or fashion on the Christian religion or any other religion. The writings of the Founders and the Constitution itself back that up clearly. What are you alleging is false about that? The “in any way” part. I agree they intentionally made it not a Christian nation in any official sense, but it was formed on Christian beliefs with some of the states having official Christian religions. So, it was a religious country, and the vastly dominant religion before the founding, during, and after was Christianity. So, It seems absurd to me to say that it was not “in any way” Christian. Your “not founded in any way, shape, form or fashion on the Christian religion or any other religion” misses the mark even further. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/80 "2010-06-09T19:07:10Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > … You can be opposed to Islamist oppression of homosexuals… Tangential thought: it’s really quite odd to rant on about Islam and homophobia, when my literary reading tells me that until Gay liberation in the Anglo world in … 1960s-1970s? … a goodly number of Anglo homosexuals (arty types) moved to places like Morocco and Pakistan (before it went kooky) due to the relaxed attitudes towards homosexuality. American writer Bowles, of course others. I have also read, although haven’t any direct knowledge, that in the classical period of Islam, explicitly homo-erotic poetry was not just tolerated, but part of a cannon. Just recently in reading something on Wikipedia I stumbled across a mention of an Andalus emir (caliph, I’ll be buggered if I can recall) who openly had a lover, and the criticism was the fellow was low-born… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391.md?page=5)