# Please help me rebut this anti-muslim Email. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 8, 2010, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391 "2010-06-08T04:14:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/81 "2010-06-09T19:08:15Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > The “in any way” part. I agree they intentionally made it not a Christian nation in any official sense, but it was formed on Christian beliefs. Like what? Name one Christian belief reflected in the US Constitution (I’ll give you a hint: there aren’t any). ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/82 "2010-06-09T19:26:02Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Like what? Name one Christian belief reflected in the US Constitution (I’ll give you a hint: there aren’t any). Why do you do this? Neither I nor anyone else claimed that Christianity is enshrined in the Constitution. Nope. All you have here is a a strawman Colussus. We were talking about “in any way”. You even said “The **writings of the Founders** and the Constitution…” (bolding mine). But even with all this, you’re “there aren’t any” is wrong: (emphasis mine) > [@](#): > > Done in convention by the unanimous consent of the states present the seventeenth day of September \*\*in the year of our Lord \*\*one thousand seven hundred and eighty seven and of the independence of the United States of America the twelfth. In witness whereof We have hereunto subscribed our Names, Now before you dive into the keyboard and break your nose, remember the words, “in any way”. and the even stronger language you used. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/83 "2010-06-09T19:28:32Z")
I hope you have an example other than that, because from here that looks like a ridiculous nitpick. Even if it’s in response to an overly broad statement. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/84 "2010-06-09T19:28:33Z")
**magellan01** , I think you and **Dio** are talking at cross-purposes about the term “founding” or “founded”. You’re pointing out that the early US was in many ways a Christian **society** , which is true, and Christian beliefs and practices were reflected in the laws of many colony and state governments. However, the actual establishment of the US federal government, which is the act that I think most deserves to be called the “founding” of the US, deliberately omitted all engagement with or acknowledgement of religious beliefs or practices of whatever kind. It was explicitly decided by the creators of the legal basis of our government that that legal basis should be secular, to avoid political entanglement in interfaith conflicts. (Even if the concept “interfaith” to those people connoted, say, Baptist vs. Congregationalist much more than, say, Christian vs. Muslim.) ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/85 "2010-06-09T19:31:18Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Why do you do this? Neither I nor anyone else claimed that Christianity is enshrined in the Constitution. Nope. All you have here is a a strawman Colussus. We were talking about “in any way”. You even said “The **writings of the Founders** and the Constitution…” (bolding mine). > > But even with all this, you’re “there aren’t any” is wrong: (emphasis mine) > > Now before you dive into the keyboard and break your nose, remember the words, “in any way”. and the even stronger language you used. You’ve got to be kidding me. Your cite that they founded the country on Christianity rests solely on the fact that they used the BC/AD dating convention? Fuck me, that’s pathetic. The USA was not founded on any Christian principle whatsoever. That is a fact. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/86 "2010-06-09T19:33:49Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Like what? Name one Christian belief reflected in the US Constitution (I’ll give you a hint: there aren’t any). Way to move the goal posts. But I guess such is required to maintain a black and white position. Magellan flat out said they removed it from the actual laws themselves. You have offered nothing against his point, that several of the colonies that formed the nation were themselves formed for religious reasons. And still had established religions at the point of signing the Constitution. Not that that’s too important, since we date the start of the country not from then, but from the signing of Declaration of Independence. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/87 "2010-06-09T19:35:46Z")
I agree with what **Kimstu** said (something which seems to be happening distressingly often these days). The US was majority Christian in its popular practice, of course, but the state itself was completely secular and the Constitution IS the “foundation” of the state. The private religious practice of citizens was, and is, irrelevant to the foundational principles of the state. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/88 "2010-06-09T19:38:44Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Way to move the goal posts. What goal posts? What did I move. The “foundation” of the US and the US Constitution are the same thing. > [@](#): > > But I guess such is required to maintain a black and white position. Magellan flat out said they removed it from the actual laws themselves. Removed what from what laws? I don’t know what you’re talking about. > [@](#): > > You have offered nothing against his point, that several of the colonies that formed the nation were themselves formed for religious reasons. Irrelevant. > [@](#): > > And still had established religions at the point of signing the Constitution. Irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/89 "2010-06-09T19:42:02Z")
To my mind, you guys are all focussing on the wrong thing. Here’s what article 11 says again: > [@](#): > > Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion,—as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen,—and as the said States never entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries. As it stands, it is a bit disingenuous. It is true that “the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion”: the framers were careful to seperate church and state. However, the clause goes on to conclude: “that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries”. That simply does not necessarily follow … because the actual people in the US were of course in many cases very religious, and they were generally all Christian. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/90 "2010-06-09T19:43:36Z")
I believe that it would also be important to understand that clause (insofar as it was read into parliament for adoption, it seems a bit bankrupt to quibble over extent Arabic copies, it was clearly the US official view) in the context of Europe at the time. all European states - or at least the major states (fearing some minor exception) had an explicitly formal Christian constitution, that is state churches and active, state-sponsored discrimination against (Christian particularly) religious minorities. The American statement that they’re not like Spain or France or even England - no state church, legal freedom relative to say Jewish or even Muslim religious practice, well given the time of writing that document it makes much sense. Looking at the document in terms of your current domestic politics seems rather abusive. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/91 "2010-06-09T19:43:48Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > Well of course I have. I take jets around the world every Friday and although I am a Kaffir I enter Mosques and listen to what is being said in languages I do not understand. How else could a person have information on the fact that “Death to America, Death to Israel” is frequently chanted in Mosques all over the world? You’re a [kaffir](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir_(racial_term))? Seriously? You’re a black person who uses an ethnic slur to describe yourself and you can’t enter mosques because of your ethnicity? Or maybe you simply can’t be bothered to keep your ethnic slurs straight. It’s very difficult with all them other cultures and all. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/92 "2010-06-09T19:50:40Z")
> [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](#): > > You’re a [kaffir](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kaffir_(racial_term))? Seriously? You’re a black person who uses an ethnic slur to describe yourself and you can’t enter mosques because of your ethnicity? > > Or maybe you simply can’t be bothered to keep your ethnic slurs straight. It’s very difficult with all them other cultures and all. I said earlier that this hijack needs to go elsewhere. I’ll reiterate that now - this belongs in the Pit. But I will also point out that **Valteron** was probably using the word to mean “non-believer,” which is its original meaning. I see that he used the spelling associated with the slur, but in the context of what he said, the non-believer definition makes more sense. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/93 "2010-06-09T19:59:18Z")
Getting back to the OP for a second - if you’re worried about this guy losing his job, consider that by bringing this to HR now, consider the possibility that you might actually be doing him a favor by reporting him. Unless this guy already has a record of doing stuff like this, they’re very unlikely to fire him for it. They are, however, much more likely to fire him if he sends something like this to someone who starts talking lawsuit. If he gets in hot water with HR for this now, it might get the message through to him that this isn’t okay before he fucks up in a way that will require HR to show him the door. ---
**Author:** ![Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/b38774/32.png) [@Attack\_from\_the\_3rd\_dimension](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Attack_from_the_3rd_dimension)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/94 "2010-06-09T20:05:04Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I said earlier that this hijack needs to go elsewhere. I’ll reiterate that now - this belongs in the Pit. But I will also point out that **Valteron** was probably using the word to mean “non-believer,” which is its original meaning. I see that he used the spelling associated with the slur, but in the context of what he said, the non-believer definition makes more sense. I thought I was being careful to avoid pit-like commentary, however, I see your point and will be more careful in future. Thanks for your light-handed moderation. I appreciate it. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/95 "2010-06-09T20:15:12Z")
[Estevanico the Moor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estevanico) (aka Mustafa Zemuri, aka Stephen the Black) was one of the first non indigenous men to travel through the Southeast and the Southwest. He was part of the [Narvaez expedition](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narv%C3%A1ez_expedition). He was one of four members to make their way from Tampa Bay to Mexico by land. He was certainly a Muslim by birth, and though nominally Catholic while a slave I would be surprised to learn he was a devout one. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/96 "2010-06-09T20:19:32Z")
Many Americans do not know that aside from the native Americans black people have been continuously in what’s now the continental U.S. longer than any other racial group. In 1526 the Spanish tried to establish a colony in what is now South Carolina. They brought with them several African slaves who remained behind when their Spanish masters were expelled by Indians (probably with the help of the African slaves). They were almost certainly Muslim- if they were Catholic then it was, as with Estavanico, a point-of-the-sword conversion. A decade later [Estevanico the Moor](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Estevanico) (aka Mustafa Zemuri, aka Stephen the Black) was one of the first non indigenous men to travel through the Southeast and the Southwest. He was part of the [Narvaez expedition](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narv%C3%A1ez_expedition). He was one of four members to make their way from Tampa Bay to Mexico by land. He was certainly a Muslim by birth, and though nominally Catholic while a slave I would be surprised to learn he was a devout one. This was almost a century before Jamestown, where in 1619 a shipment of African slaves captured by the Dutch in a sea battle were exchanged for supplies and ship repairs and almost certainly included Muslims. As for the rest, there were no Chinese-Americans or Korean-Americans or Japanese-Americans at Bunker Hill or in the Civil War. Does this mean that most Asian Americans should hang their heads in shame? ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/97 "2010-06-09T20:23:05Z")
Hey guess what, it turns out that back in the day we [did a thread on Islam in America before Columbus](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/archive/index.php/t-205420.html). Wasn’t much of it, but probably some. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 8:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/98 "2010-06-09T20:56:14Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > **magellan01** , I think you and **Dio** are talking at cross-purposes about the term “founding” or “founded”. You’re pointing out that the early US was in many ways a Christian **society** , which is true, and Christian beliefs and practices were reflected in the laws of many colony and state governments. Exactly. Which is easily covered by founded “in any way”. But **Dio** , keeps erecting these straw men. Like the one I’m about to respond to. Friggin’ ridiculous. > [@Kimstu](#): > > However, the actual establishment of the US federal government, which is the act that I think most deserves to be called the “founding” of the US, deliberately omitted all engagement with or acknowledgement of religious beliefs or practices of whatever kind. It was explicitly decided by the creators of the legal basis of our government that that legal basis should be secular, to avoid political entanglement in interfaith conflicts. (Even if the concept “interfaith” to those people connoted, say, Baptist vs. Congregationalist much more than, say, Christian vs. Muslim.) Nicely put. I agree with this, definitely as far as Christianity goes. Which is the point you are making. But if one were to try to make the claim about theism, in general, I’d think they be in error, as the DofI is a crucially important founding document. Though not a legal one. I think you go a bit too far to restrict the founding to the Constitution only. But your repeated use of the word “legal” makes me agree with your statement. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/99 "2010-06-09T21:01:30Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > You’ve got to be kidding me. Your cite that they founded the country on Christianity rests solely on the fact that they used the BC/AD dating convention? Fuck me, that’s pathetic. Would you PLEASE follow what claims are being made, by whom, and not fabricate your own to then slay like a mighty masochistic knight? Reread the original claims. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > The USA was not founded on any Christian principle whatsoever. That is a fact. In your own mind, outside of reality. Judeo-Christian principles are at the heart of the founding of this country. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/100 "2010-06-09T21:04:18Z")
Well **magellan01** , now that it’s clearly established that you and **Dio** are primarily just disagreeing about how you interpret the word “founding”, why not just ATD? Personally, I wanna see some more information about early American Muslims. 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391.md?page=6)