# Please help me rebut this anti-muslim Email. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 8, 2010, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391 "2010-06-08T04:14:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/101 "2010-06-09T21:09:20Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I hope you have an example other than that, because from here that looks like a ridiculous nitpick. Even if it’s in response to an overly broad statement. Sorry if that one isn’t good enough for you, but it directly contradicts his claim. And that is all that is needed to prove that one statement wrong. Feel free to go back and see what it was. And just to be clear, I never claimed the Constitution enshrined Christianity. Only that the statement “the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion” is nonsense. (emphasis mine) ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/102 "2010-06-09T21:11:05Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Well **magellan01** , now that it’s clearly established that you and **Dio** are primarily just disagreeing about how you interpret the word “founding”, why not just ATD? > > Personally, I wanna see some more information about early American Muslims. 🙂 Fine with me. But it appears he got a good deal on a trainload of straw and keeps implying I claimed things I didn’t. ---
**Author:** ![mutantmoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@mutantmoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mutantmoose)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/103 "2010-06-09T21:30:11Z")
> [@Shakes](#): > > Where were Muslims during World War II? They were aligned with Adolf Hitler. The Muslim grand mufti himself met with Adolf Hitler, reviewed the troops and accepted support from the Nazi’s in killing Jews.\* > > /End Email. On this point, he may like to be made aware of King Mohammed V of Morocco. When asked by the Nazis how many Jews there were in Morocco (with a view to removing them all to concentration camps), King Mohammed replied “5 million” which was the total population of Morocco at the time. Basically he was saying - if you want our Jews, you’ll have to fight all of us. Mohammed was/is very popular in Israel and you can still find portraits of him in some Israeli homes. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2010, 9:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/104 "2010-06-09T21:36:11Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Sorry if that one isn’t good enough for you, but it directly contradicts his claim. And that is all that is needed to prove that one statement wrong. Sorry, but it isn’t. The dating system does not prove the country was founded on the Christian religion. And this is getting to be a ridiculous tangent on its own. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/105 "2010-06-10T03:38:16Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > Do you _really_ think that the type of person who emails this kind of crap would respond favorably to an intelligent rebuttal? I just use the grown up and reasonable approach, as in ‘HEY ASSHOLE1 DON’T SEND ME ANY OF THIS SHIT!!!’ Sometimes it works. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/106 "2010-06-10T04:29:25Z")
> [@mutantmoose](#): > > Mohammed was/is very popular in Israel and you can still find portraits of him in some Israeli homes. Aren’t portraits of Muhammad considered sacrilegious to Muslims? [QUOTE=Marley23] Sorry, but it isn’t. The dating system does not prove the country was founded on the Christian religion. And this is getting to be a ridiculous tangent on its own. [/QUOTE] Either that or the American Atheists association is secretly Christian since the date on their website uses the year 2010. For that matter most Christians still use Wednesday, Thursday, Friday, the month of March, they celebrate Easter, and they use other days and dates with pagan gods in their origin. I’ve also seen people point to legal documents that began with “In the name of God, Amen” as proof of a person’s religious leanings. Point of fact is that almost _all_ documents began this way, so much so that it was pre-printed on many forms used by lawyers and legislators. It’s similar to the “if anybody can show just cause” part of a wedding ceremony- it’s not _really_ soliciting comments so much as it’s tradition. The [French Republican calendar](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_Republican_Calendar) was famous for completely removing anything supernatural from its nomenclature. The simple version of today’s date is 20 Prairial CCXVIII (20th day of the Month of Meadows, Year 218 of the Revolution), though in fact it’s way more complicated than that. The calendar didn’t last long though- people were a bit loathe to throw away the calender they had known all their lives and that was still used by every country on every side of them. ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/107 "2010-06-10T05:06:02Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Sorry, but it isn’t. The dating system does not prove the country was founded on the Christian religion. And this is getting to be a ridiculous tangent on its own. Go [here](http://epaper.stripes.mil) and you can download the US military’s newspaper, the _Stars & Stripes_. If you download the edition for Japan, you’ll notice that it also uses the Japanese dating system. I guess that means the US military is founded on the Shinto religion! ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/108 "2010-06-10T05:10:49Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Aren’t portraits of Muhammad considered sacrilegious to Muslims? If you’re referring to the founding prophet of the faith, then the answer is: “It depends on the individual Muslim.” After all, there are mosques with portrayals of the man. In this case, though, I believe that poster was referring to the king names Muhammed. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 10:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/109 "2010-06-10T10:24:01Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > Aren’t portraits of Muhammad considered sacrilegious to Muslims? Uh it seems clear to me he’s referring to the Moroccan King Mohammed V. Pretty sure portraits of him are just fine. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 10:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/110 "2010-06-10T10:36:13Z")
Hmmm, I got curious and tried googling up the Moroccan information and came across this: [Morocco: Jewish - Muslim Music fest](http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5g63RwqsJxdcHcFJZ-NzLjhcukGdw), and see from the article the current King there has a high-profile Jewish advisor. That has to be unique in the Arab world. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/111 "2010-06-10T10:49:10Z")
> [@wmfellows](#): > > That has to be unique in the Arab world. Does it? Iran’s not Arab, of course, but it has a [Jewish Member of Parliament (Majlis)](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ciamak_Moresadegh). [So does Bahrain](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_Bahrain#Modern_times), which _is_ Arab, and which has a [Jewish woman as its ambassador to the US](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Houda_Ezra_Nonoo). Not quite the same as a high-profile advisor to the monarch, but still pretty politically prominent. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/112 "2010-06-10T13:38:31Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > You’d be hard pressed to find examples of even a backwater Christian clergyman in the US espousing violence. The craziest one I can think of is Phelps and beyond being an evil jackass he’s physically harmless. This is a joke, right? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/113 "2010-06-10T13:39:05Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Sorry if that one isn’t good enough for you, but it directly contradicts his claim. And that is all that is needed to prove that one statement wrong. Feel free to go back and see what it was. And just to be clear, I never claimed the Constitution enshrined Christianity. Only that the statement “the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion” is nonsense. (emphasis mine) It is not – not in any sense at all. And the use of a dating convention does not prove otherwise. You can’t point to a single founding principle rooted in Christianity. Not one. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 2:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/114 "2010-06-10T14:28:02Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Sorry, but it isn’t. The dating system does not prove the country was founded on the Christian religion. And this is getting to be a ridiculous tangent on its own. Oh boy, more straw! Way to keep the tangent going Mr. Moderator. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 2:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/115 "2010-06-10T14:42:55Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > It is not – not in any sense at all. And the use of a dating convention does not prove otherwise. > > You can’t point to a single founding principle rooted in Christianity. Not one. So, the fact that what you consider the most important founding document dates it by using a reference to Jesus Christ (you know, the guy who Christianity was founded upon), is not evidence that the this statement: “…the United States of America is not, _in any sense_, founded on the Christian religion.” …is false? Well, in that case, sure, whatever you say. :rolleyes: And that doesn’t even take into account other founding documents, like the DofI. I think I’m going to take **Kimstu’s** advice and spare myself another day in your Strawmanistan. Careful with those matches! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/116 "2010-06-10T14:45:48Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > So, the fact that what you consider the most important founding document dates it by using a reference to Jesus Christ (you know, the guy who Christianity was founded upon), is not evidence that the this statement: > > “…the United States of America is not, _in any sense_, founded on the Christian religion.” > > …is false? There are certainly arguments for the idea that the US is in some sense a Christian nation, but that’s about the worst one I’ve ever heard. What other method of dating were they going to use? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 2:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/117 "2010-06-10T14:47:52Z")
[quote=“magellan01, post:115, topic:542391”] So, the fact that what you consider the most important founding document dates it by using a reference to Jesus Christ (you know, the guy who Christianity was founded upon), is not evidence that the this statement: “…the United States of America is not, _in any sense_, founded on the Christian religion.” …is false?[/qupote] No. It isn’t. At all. That was the only dating convention available to them. It’s meaningless. Most of them were not Christians themselves. Thomas Jefferson _despised_ Christianity. Why don’t you name an actual foundational principle based on Chrstianity. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/118 "2010-06-10T14:56:36Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Oh boy, more straw! > > Way to keep the tangent going Mr. Moderator. Care to explain what my moderating status has to do with your argument? Otherwise this seems like some kind of attempted pot shot. Let’s review your disagreement with **Diogenes the Cynic** here. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > What’s false about it? The United States is, in fact, not founded in any way, shape, form or fashion on the Christian religion or any other religion. The writings of the Founders and the Constitution itself back that up clearly. What are you alleging is false about that? You said it was formed on Christian beliefs. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Like what? Name one Christian belief reflected in the US Constitution (I’ll give you a hint: there aren’t any). To which you mentioned the dating system. To review: you’re arguing that the Constitution is formed on Christian beliefs based entirely on the use of the words “in the year of our Lord.” This is a laughably bad argument, which is why I asked if you had other support for it. You haven’t posted any. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/119 "2010-06-10T15:06:04Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No. It isn’t. At all. That was the only dating convention available to them. How about just the date: “September 17, 1787”, and not go the additional step of including a mention of “our Lord”. Surely that would have been more secular/less Christian, no? And less evidence that you’re wrong. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Most of them were not Christians themselves. Please tell me you’re kidding. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Thomas Jefferson _despised_ Christianity. Kidding again? Maybe you’re confusing his thinking that the miracles and some of the biblical passages went too far with the actual teachings of Christ, which he held in exceedingly high esteem. > [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > Why don’t you name an actual foundational principle based on Chrstianity. “…all men are created equal. That they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights…” You know, as stated in the original founding document of the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/120 "2010-06-10T15:09:27Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > “…all men are created equal. That they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights…” > > You know, as stated in the original founding document of the United States. The Declaration of Independence is an important document, but it’s not “the original founding document of the United States.” There’s also nothing particularly Christian about the statement, and no evidence that Creator means the Judeochristian god. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391.md?page=7)