# Please help me rebut this anti-muslim Email. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 8, 2010, 4:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391 "2010-06-08T04:14:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/121 "2010-06-10T15:14:24Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > Care to explain what my moderating status has to do with your argument? Otherwise this seems like some kind of attempted pot shot. Let’s review your disagreement with **Diogenes the Cynic** here. > > You said it was formed on Christian beliefs. > > To which you mentioned the dating system. > > To review: you’re arguing that the Constitution is formed on Christian beliefs based entirely on the use of the words “in the year of our Lord.” This is a laughably bad argument, which is why I asked if you had other support for it. You haven’t posted any. Well, I would think that a moderator of a debate forum would be less prone than others to employ logical fallacies (straw and goalpost variety), especially to continue what they view to be a tangent. If you think I’m wrong in that regard, I won’t argue against you. Especially since you employ that same tendency in this latest post of yours. I tell you what, if you want to accurately chronicle our exchange to keep track of what actual claims were made by whom and what the actual defenses were, feel free to do so. It would probably be helpful. (Except for continuing on a tangent.) But that’s not what you’ve done here. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/122 "2010-06-10T15:21:05Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > The Declaration of Independence is an important document, but it’s not “the original founding document of the United States.” There’s also nothing particularly Christian about the statement, and no evidence that Creator means the Judeochristian god. It’s not? The document that established the initial break with England and brings together the thirteen colonies under one banner is not the original founding document?!! You’ll have to explain how that makes sense. And while your at it, what IS the original founding document? > [@Marley23](#): > > There’s also nothing particularly Christian about the statement, and no evidence that Creator means the Judeochristian god. I agree that the latter half allows for more than the Judeochristian god. But the concepts of being born with inalienable rights and all men being born equal are, indeed, Christian beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![joebuck20](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/74df32/32.png) [@joebuck20](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/joebuck20)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/123 "2010-06-10T15:33:00Z")
So Shakes, what ended up happening? Did you ever confront the guy? What did he say? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/124 "2010-06-10T15:34:53Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It’s not? The document that established the initial break with England and brings together the thirteen colonies under one banner is not the original founding document?!! No, it is not the founding document of the United States. It establishes the break with England but does not establish the United States of America as a country. The declaration does not have any legal standing. The U.S. government was established by the Constitution (after the failed Articles of Confederation). And what does the Treaty of Tripoli say? > [@](#): > > the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion The dating system does not support your argument here. Like **Kimstu** said, it shows the Declaraion and Constitution came from a Christian society, which shouldn’t be news to anyone. The dating system is not a Christian principle. It comes from long after Jesus, is probably off by several years, and if it never existed nothing about Christianity would be different. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 3:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/125 "2010-06-10T15:35:09Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It’s not? The document that established the initial break with England and brings together the thirteen colonies under one banner is not the original founding document?!! You’ll have to explain how that makes sense. And while your at it, what IS the original founding document? Your grasp of history is somewhat deficient. The Declaration of Independence was drafted and signed in July of 1776. The Revolutionary War began in April of 1775; the colonies had already been [declared](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proclamation_of_Rebellion) to be in open rebellion by the British Crown in August; and most of the colonies had already declared their independence individually by the end of 1775. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/126 "2010-06-10T15:37:11Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > How about just the date: “September 17, 1787”, and not go the additional step of including a mention of “our Lord”. Surely that would have been more secular/less Christian, no? And less evidence that you’re wrong. That was not a convention in currency at the time. Formal documents always spelled out “the year of our Lord” part. It was just what was done. It was so meaningless and automatic, I doubt it ever crossed their minds to change it. > [@](#): > > Please tell me you’re kidding. Is it news to you that the Founders were deists? > [@](#): > > Kidding again? Maybe you’re confusing his thinking that the miracles and some of the biblical passages went too far with the actual teachings of Christ, which he held in exceedingly high esteem. No, he explicitly and unequivocally condemned Christianity on moral grounds. “Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.” -Notes on Virginia, 1782 He thought Jesus was a good guy, but that the religion he inspired was complete crap. He rejected the divinity of Christ and all miracles, and he had nothing but caustic things to say about Christians. For example: “I concur with you strictly in your opinion of the comparative merits of atheism and demonism, and really see nothing but the latter in the being worshipped by many who think themselves Christians.” -letter to Richard Price, Jan. 8, 1789 Another: “And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.” -Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823 I can cite a host of other quotes for Jefferson not only disparaging the Christian religion and the New Testament, but stating unequivocally that it had nothing to do with the founding principles of the United States. He said in his autobiography that a proposal to put the words “Jesus Christ as the holy author of our religion” into the preamble of the Constitution was overwhelmingly rejected. > [@](#): > > “…all men are created equal. That they are endowed by their Creator with certain inalienable rights…” > > You know, as stated in the original founding document of the United States. 1. That’s the Declaration of Independence, not the Constitution, so it’s not a founding document. 2. What does it have to do with Christianity? ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/127 "2010-06-10T15:42:06Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > It’s not? The document that established the initial break with England and brings together the thirteen colonies under one banner is not the original founding document?!! No, it’s not. It’s legally meaningless. The Revolutionary War established American independence. The letter was just a press release. > [@](#): > > And while your at it, what IS the original founding document? The Constitution. > [@](#): > > I agree that the latter half allows for more than the Judeochristian god. But the concepts of being born with inalienable rights and all men being born equal are, indeed, Christian beliefs. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Joanie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/e95f7d/32.png) [@Joanie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joanie)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/128 "2010-06-10T16:03:49Z")
If and when they fire this guy, they may decide to fire him based on his using company computers to send email on company time and to bother other employees and waste their time when they should be working. Therefore, if they do that, you could be standing in the line of fire. I would suggest that you get yourself out of the line of fire by deleting the email and pretend that you never received it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/129 "2010-06-10T16:10:20Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > This is a joke, right? Cite your position that we have a problem with Christian clergy espousing violence in the United States. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/130 "2010-06-10T16:16:06Z")
> [@Valteron](#): > > I have always been a liberal and a leftist, and I still am in terms of issues like medicare, social programs etc. But as a gay person, I have been sold down the fucking river in the name of political correctness by liberal-left apologhists for the the Islamofascists who consider the death penalty or severe prison sentences for being gay (or honour killings by the family and community in states like Jordan) to be a delightful aspect of multiculturalism that we have to accept in our Muslim brothers and sisters. :rolleyes: > > Not to mention the oppression of women, imposed puritanical laws on sexual behaviour, no more separation of Church and State, and a thousand other goodies Ilsam has to offer. You are right. As a gay person, you have few career choices in a muslim country except perhaps having a [hit tv show](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ali_Saleem). Or being a [fashion designer](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hassan_Sheheryar_Yasin). ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/131 "2010-06-10T16:22:00Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Cite your position that we have a problem with Christian clergy espousing violence in the United States. Watch those goalposts there—what you originally said was > [@Magiver](#): > > You’d be hard pressed to find examples of even a backwater Christian clergyman in the US espousing violence. Claiming that there isn’t a **problem** with a certain phenomenon isn’t quite the same as saying that it’s difficult even to find **examples** of a certain phenomenon. In any case, if by “espousing violence” you mean “encouraging attacks by terrorist groups”, then sure, there probably aren’t many US Christian clergy who do that (excepting some right-to-life zealots who condone attacks on abortion clinics, perhaps). But remember, the USA is the big dog when it comes to violence options. When we do violence it isn’t “terrorism”, it’s “military action”. (Or “covert operations”, of the sort that the Reverend Pat Robertson was suggesting when [he called for the assassination of Hugo Chavez](http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-08-22-robertson-_x.htm).) I’m sure there are lots of Christian clergy in the US who endorse military aggression and covert operations on our part and say we should be doing more of it. There certainly were lots of them during the run-up to the Iraq War, for example. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/132 "2010-06-10T17:04:29Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Watch those goalposts there—what you originally said was > > Claiming that there isn’t a **problem** with a certain phenomenon isn’t quite the same as saying that it’s difficult even to find **examples** of a certain phenomenon. > > In any case, if by “espousing violence” you mean “encouraging attacks by terrorist groups”, then sure, there probably aren’t many US Christian clergy who do that (excepting some right-to-life zealots who condone attacks on abortion clinics, perhaps). I was specific with my goal posts. I’m not discounting any goofy bullshit found in Christianity or any other religion but there is a pretty solid line dividing overt enticement to kill in the name of God. Most of the other major religions have gotten over themselves in this respect and are not acting as God’s personal angels of death. > [@Kimstu](#): > > But remember, the USA is the big dog when it comes to violence options. When we do violence it isn’t “terrorism”, it’s “military action”. (Or “covert operations”, of the sort that the Reverend Pat Robertson was suggesting when [he called for the assassination of Hugo Chavez](http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2005-08-22-robertson-_x.htm).) That’s not an example of a Clergy invoking “God’s will” but he is certainly “a” clergyman espousing violence in a national context as well as a slam against Islam. Not sure what the religion has to do with communism. ---
**Author:** ![wmfellows](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/c2a13f/32.png) [@wmfellows](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wmfellows)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/133 "2010-06-10T17:16:18Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I was specific with my goal posts. I’m not discounting any goofy bullshit found in Christianity or any other religion but there is a pretty solid line dividing overt enticement to kill in the name of God. Most of the other major religions have gotten over themselves in this respect and are not acting as God’s personal angels of death. Eh? Evidently you know fuck all about other religions, there’s some right nasty Hindutava folks about who call for the killing of Muslims and Christian converts and I can assure you down in Africa - see Uganda - God’s Personal Angels of Death preachers are not lacking at all. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/134 "2010-06-10T17:21:39Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > And while your at it, what IS the original founding document? > > The Constitution. No it isn’t. The USA existed since the Declaration of Independence in 1776. You said so yourself - > [@](#): > > The Revolutionary War established American independence. The Constitution was not adopted until 1787. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/135 "2010-06-10T17:23:17Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Cite your position that we have a problem with Christian clergy espousing violence in the United States. How [quickly](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wiley_Drake#Response_to_the_assassination_of_Dr._George_Tiller) [we](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Jennings_Hill) [forget](http://edition.cnn.com/2000/US/09/30/axewielding.priest/). These aren’t even clergy _espousing_ violence - they’re engaging in it themselves. I do not believe that you don’t know this stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e99b99/32.png) [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Diogenes_the_Cynic)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/136 "2010-06-10T18:00:25Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > No it isn’t. The USA existed since the Declaration of Independence in 1776. You said so yourself - The Constitution was not adopted until 1787. No, the colonies becoming independent of England was not the same thing as them becoming a united nation. There was no USA until the ratification of the Constitution. Before then, they were 13 individual states. The Declaration of Independence did not found or establish anything, and still expressed no Christian sentiments in any case. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 10:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/137 "2010-06-10T22:15:50Z")
> [@Diogenes\_the\_Cynic](#): > > No, the colonies becoming independent of England was not the same thing as them becoming a united nation. There was no USA until the ratification of the Constitution. Before then, they were 13 individual states. The Declaration of Independence did not found or establish anything, and still expressed no Christian sentiments in any case. Not that anything will cause you to admit error once you get on one of your **Dio’s** Version Of Reality kicks, but what the heck: (bolding mine) > [@](#): > > The United States was founded by thirteen British colonies located along the Atlantic seaboard. **On July 4, 1776, they issued the Declaration of Independence, which proclaimed their right to self-determination and their establishment of a cooperative union.** > [@](#): > > Independence from the Kingdom of Great Britain > > - Declared July 4, 1776 > - Recognized September 3, 1783 > - Current constitution June 21, 1788 From [here.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) (Note that these both are on Wikipedia’s United States page, so the latter is referring to the U.S. being declared into existence. Here’s [more:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Declaration_of_Independence) > [@](#): > > The United States Declaration of Independence is a statement adopted by the Continental Congress on July 4, 1776, which announced that the thirteen American colonies then at war with Great Britain were now independent states, and thus no longer a part of the British Empire. Written primarily by Thomas Jefferson, the Declaration is a formal explanation of why Congress had voted on July 2 to declare independence from Great Britain, more than a year after the outbreak of the American Revolutionary War. **The birthday of the United States of America—Independence Day—is celebrated on July 4, the day the wording of the Declaration was approved by Congress.** Now click [here,](http://www.constitution.org/cs_found.htm) and [here.](http://www.foundingfathers.info/documents/) ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/138 "2010-06-10T22:24:28Z")
[Moderating] > [@magellan01](#): > > Not that anything will cause you to admit error once you get on one of your **Dio’s** Version Of Reality kicks, but what the heck: Dispense with the potshots, please. [/Moderating] > [@](#): > > From [here.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States) (Note that these both are on Wikipedia’s United States page, so the latter is referring to the U.S. being declared into existence. The U.S. was not “declared into existence,” whatever that would mean. They declared their independence in 1776. It’s already been pointed out they were at war with Britain before that. The name of the country was not even finalized until 1777, and that’s from the same cite. ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/139 "2010-06-10T22:39:52Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > [Moderating] > > Dispense with the potshots, please. > > [/Moderating] Will do. > [@Marley23](#): > > The U.S. was not “declared into existence,” whatever that would mean. They declared their independence in 1776. It’s already been pointed out they were at war with Britain before that. The name of the country was not even finalized until 1777, and that’s from the same cite. Let’s make this easy: is the DofI one of your founding documents or not? ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2010, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391/140 "2010-06-10T22:54:46Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Let’s make this easy: is the DofI one of your founding documents or not? I thought I answered this already: it does not establish a government or the United States of America as a nation. It declares the independence of the colonies from Great Britain. Not only does it not found the United States, it refers to the ex-colonies as free and independent states, and says they have the rights to do things that independent countries do, such as declaring war and making peace. You wouldn’t say the state of Oregon has the right to declare war or South Dakota has the right to enter an alliance- they don’t because they’re states within a country. And the declaration does not have legal standing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-anti-muslim-email/542391.md?page=8)