# Please help me rebut this NPR story on reincarnation **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 7, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-npr-story-on-reincarnation/678142 "2014-01-07T16:29:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-npr-story-on-reincarnation/678142/1 "2014-01-07T16:29:53Z")
I have a couple friends who have long differed sharply with me for my “materialist”, “empiricist” views. I do not know if they have caught wind of [this story](http://www.npr.org/2014/01/05/259886077/searching-for-science-behind-reincarnation), but I would like to be prepared if and when they do. It sure sounds hard to explain as described, but I would count myself among those listeners the NPR host described as having the “there’s just no _way_” reaction. I have faith that most people here will feel similarly; and more importantly I’m hoping someone will be able to explain it away. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-npr-story-on-reincarnation/678142/2 "2014-01-07T16:59:00Z")
This psychiatrist is a poor excuse for a scientist. All he’s doing is collecting anecdotes with no matter of control over the accuracy as evidenced by the example used in this interview: > [@](#): > > it seems absolutely impossible that he could have somehow gained this information as a 2-year-old through some sort of normal means. In fact, it took his dad a couple of years -\* well, really more than a couple of years, three or four years - to be able to track it all down and see that in fact that what James was saying all did fit for this pilot who was killed\*. And then we have all the lacking information around the story. It seems a lot less impressive as described by quotes here: [http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2005/07/reincarnation\_a.html](http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2005/07/reincarnation_a.html) > [@](#): > > At 18 months old, his father, Bruce Leininger, took James to the Kavanaugh Flight Museum in Dallas, Texas, where the toddler remained transfixed by World War II aircraft. > > A few months later, the nightmares began. > [@](#): > > Andrea’s mother suggested she look into the work of counselor and therapist Carol Bowman, who believes that the dead sometimes can be reborn. > > With guidance from Bowman, they began to encourage James to share his memories — and immediately, Andrea says, the nightmares started to become less frequent. James was also becoming more articulate about his apparent past, she said. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-npr-story-on-reincarnation/678142/3 "2014-01-07T17:28:41Z")
When the person asked in the NPR interview to “explain the science” says: > [@](#): > > Well, I think it’s very difficult to just map these cases onto materialist understanding of reality …the off-the-scale readings on your woo detector should provide a wee hint that NPR is trafficking in bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/half_man_half_wit/32/21766_2.png) [@Half\_Man\_Half\_Wit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Half_Man_Half_Wit)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-npr-story-on-reincarnation/678142/4 "2014-01-07T19:09:01Z")
**Naita** has already pointed to the problematic bit: > [@](#): > > it _seems absolutely impossible_ that he could have somehow gained this information as a 2-year-old through some sort of normal means [my emphasis] But in fact, there are loads of possibilities. One is simple chance: if you look long enough for something inexplicable, you _will_ find it eventually. Interview enough children, and you’ll find a story that matches up with something. Granted, the match is very good, but that doesn’t make it impossible; you’ll have to make a call whether you consider the result to be more likely than the transmigration of nonphysical souls. And sometimes one just gets lucky! Additionally, you have to assess how much to trust the information you’re getting. It may be unlikely, but certainly not impossible that the father researched all that stuff beforehand and just planted it in his son’s mind. Or maybe there is some obscure TV documentary which mentions the case that happened to be playing one day. Maybe a prankster relative just wanted to have some fun with the family, and now the whole thing’s blown up doesn’t want to come forward. And so on. Granted, all alternative explanations I can think of are very unlikely. But that’s a far cry from impossible. Asserting that any other explanation is impossible is indicative of severe bias. And given the prima facie reason we have for believing in reincarnation—which is none, while we can be pretty certain that coincidences, cheating, or honest mistakes occur—, any of these provides a valid alternative. Plus, there’s always the possibility that it’s something I haven’t thought of. We all like to think of ourselves as smart, but when we can’t find an explanation for something, that doesn’t in any way entail that none exists; it means just that we can’t think of one. People are, as a rule, quick to confuse those two things. Just think about how often you have been absolutely flabbergasted by a stage magician’s illusion, only to then, upon being told how it works, smack your forehead. Now consider how this would play out if you hadn’t known that there’s a trick involved (either because not everybody admits their trickery upfront, or because there actually isn’t anybody deliberately playing a trick)—there’s a good chance that you’d leave the experience with the near-certainty that there just can’t be an explanation, when in reality, there is—you just haven’t thought of it. ---
**Author:** ![buddha\_david](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ee7513/32.png) [@buddha\_david](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buddha_david)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-npr-story-on-reincarnation/678142/5 "2014-01-07T19:10:54Z")
The only detail that prevents me from dismissing this claim out of hand is the supposed fact that the young boy provided specific details about his nightmarish crash. Without those specific details, the story could be easily dismissed as overactive imagination, perhaps from a WWII film that he saw on TV. Naturally, what needs to be addressed is just how the boy provided that information – was it something he came up with naturally, or did Mr. Scientist “guide” him towards those specifics? And in either case, the whole story may be one gigantic coincidence; when you consider how many American pilots were lost in the Japanese Theater, it’s no surprise, statistically speaking, that one of them bore a name as common as “Jack Larsen” – heck, the name itself may have come from a TV documentary, but that’s a major stretch. From a spiritualist perspective, this story is quite compelling. But from a scientific viewpoint, it’s a failure. Mr. Scientist clearly wants this story to be true, and the fact that he did not address any alternate possibilities means that his methodology is inherently suspect. So I would invoke Occam’s Razor and conclude that most likely, the specific identifying details as given are most likely **false** (perhaps manipulated, perhaps merely mistaken) – and even if that’s not the case, the story draws from too large a data pool for mere \*\*coincidence \*\*to be ruled out. Think your friends will buy that? ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-npr-story-on-reincarnation/678142/6 "2014-01-07T20:38:28Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > Naturally, what needs to be addressed is just how the boy provided that information – was it something he came up with naturally, or did Mr. Scientist “guide” him towards those specifics? As described in one of the links referred to earlier the actual steps allow for a lot of inaccuracy: 1. Boy has nightmares about crashing planes. 2. Boy is sent to “therapist” who promotes reincarnation ideas. 3. With the “help” of the therapist boy starts being more detailed. 4. Father spends years looking for information to prove/disprove reincarnation hypothesis. 5. “Scientist” collects anecdote along with boatloads of similarly poorly controllable anecdotes and considers them a good starting point for pure woo use of words like Quantum. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-npr-story-on-reincarnation/678142/7 "2014-01-07T21:19:05Z")
I have no doubt that this is bogus simehow, and I too roll my eyes at the so-called scientist’s dismissal of materialism. And the museum thing does help. I do wish there was something more solid to debunk this though. Part of what bothers me is that the fact that I in no way give any credence to the possibility that this actually represents reincarnation forces me to confront the accusations my friends level, namely that my beliefs are just as faith-based as theirs on some level. Normally that accusation is easily dismissed; but in this case there is some truth to it. ---
**Author:** ![Hampshire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hampshire/32/4887_2.png) [@Hampshire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hampshire)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 10:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-npr-story-on-reincarnation/678142/8 "2014-01-07T22:10:26Z")
I imagine a lot of parent intervention connecting of dots and filling in details that were never there to begin with. Like the basic kids game [telephone](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_whispers) where the details get chaned with each telling. The dad asks the kid the name of the boat and the kid says “no-no”, dad researches boat names and finds Natoma, decides the kid must have meant Natoma, tells people the kid said Natoma. Or kid says his pilot friends name was Jack, dad finds a story of a crashed pilot, pilot has a mate named Jack Larsen, kid must have meant Jack Larsen, tells people the kid said Jack Larsen. People twist details all the time in retelling what other people said intentionally or unintentionally. Often to make the story better or fit what they imagine the story to be. ---
**Author:** ![gigi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a587f6/32.png) [@gigi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gigi)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-npr-story-on-reincarnation/678142/9 "2014-01-07T22:17:08Z")
"At 18 months old, his father, Bruce Leininger, took James to the Kavanaugh Flight Museum in Dallas, Texas, where the toddler remained transfixed by World War II aircraft. " I can rebut this right there. No 18-month-old can be the father of a toddler. ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-npr-story-on-reincarnation/678142/10 "2014-01-07T22:47:08Z")
LOL, **gigi**. ---
**Author:** ![DonnieBarko](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e19adc/32.png) [@DonnieBarko](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DonnieBarko)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2014, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-npr-story-on-reincarnation/678142/11 "2014-01-07T23:37:10Z")
The story about the boy who, allegedly, spontaneously began having memories of being a fighter pilot in World War II is actually the subject of this book: > **[Soul Survivor: The Reincarnation of a World War II Fighter Pilot: Leininger,...](https://www.amazon.com/Soul-Survivor-Reincarnation-World-Fighter/dp/0446509345)** > > Soul Survivor: The Reincarnation of a World War II Fighter Pilot \[Leininger, Bruce, Leininger, Andrea, Gross, Ken\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. Soul Survivor: The Reincarnation of a World War II Fighter Pilot The book is written by his parents. So if you wanted to debunk this particular case study, you could do so by reading that book and trying to find flaws with it. One obvious flaw, is the very fact that there is a book. This implies a financial motive. In any event, I have read this book and there are a few particularly interesting tidbits that were not mentioned in the linked NPR interview. I recall that the boy’s parents actually arranged to have the boy attend a reunion of his fellow shipmates, and the boy went. In the book, there are photographs with the boy, sitting alongside 80 year old men, who must have been absolutely dumbfounded by the entire affair. Also, the boy’s parents contacted the dead pilot’s sister, and the boy told her a few things that, apparently, only the deceased man would have known. One detail that I recall had something to do with a painting that was kept in the attic of their old home (the home of the deceased WWII pilot). I think the boy also called her by a name that only the deceased pilot would have called her. Anyway, some of the posters above have faulted this scientist for his method, but, ultimately, the nature of this sort of study does not lend itself to controlled experiments. Even if you had an orphanage at your disposal, full of young kids you could question about their “previous lives,” just by questioning them, you would be influencing them to give a a response, which they could make up on the spot. I cannot imagine a way to test these sort of cases that would satisfy the rigors of the scientific method, so it is what it is: interesting anecdotes. So, here, it seems that we just have these unfalsifiable case studies, which are in the vein of the scientist’s own predecessor at the University of Virginia, Ian Stevenson, who famously “confirmed” about 2,500 of these cases (he “confirmed” them by actually following the leads that the children provided, via details of their “former life,” and matching them up with actual records or witness testimony; such work is, admittedly, a post hoc analysis). I think these cases are interesting, but they can really only be taken at face value. What do they prove? Nothing. And the scientist in this interview even admits as much. “TUCKER: Well, I don’t know that I’m necessarily trying to prove anything, but I’m trying to sort of find out for myself what seems to be going on here.” ---
**Author:** ![Learjeff](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/94ad74/32.png) [@Learjeff](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Learjeff)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-npr-story-on-reincarnation/678142/12 "2014-01-08T02:30:36Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > I have no doubt that this is bogus simehow, and I too roll my eyes at the so-called scientist’s dismissal of materialism. And the museum thing does help. I do wish there was something more solid to debunk this though. > > Part of what bothers me is that the fact that I in no way give any credence to the possibility that this actually represents reincarnation forces me to confront the accusations my friends level, namely that my beliefs are just as faith-based as theirs on some level. Normally that accusation is easily dismissed; but in this case there is some truth to it. Well, good for you: at least you’re open to the idea that you can be blinded by your preconceptions. A good scientist is skeptical, and doesn’t jump to conclusions. There’s an awful lot of good reasons to be skeptical of supernatural claims, the main one being that none have ever been scientifically validated (as valid observations of things that are inexplicable by science – which doesn’t necessarily make them supernatural). Of course, by law of averages, there will be some studies that show spooky correlations, but if you take them en toto it’s noise. But just because there’s good reason to be a physicalist, or materialist, or logical positivist, or whatever brand I prefer, that doesn’t mean that I’m 100% certain that there is no supernatural, or is nothing that people would call supernatural that today’s science can’t explain. So maybe there’s something to this. Of course, as a skeptic, I’d want to see a lot more evidence, and not just anecdotal evidence that is subject to wishful thinking and a lot of other misleading forces. The trickiest aspect is the question of whether there are things that exist but the process of trying to study them objectively causes them not to appear. Yup, that’s a bit of a stumper to us folks who prefer objective studies. In any case, I remain skeptical until someone shows me convincing evidence, which takes a lot more than a few anecdotes. There certainly is a lot of stuff that people used to believe that few people believe today. In the future, they’ll be able to say that about some of the stuff we think we know now. (Tomorrow’s superstitions were yesterday’s knowledge.) ---
**Author:** ![SlackerInc](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slackerinc/32/275_2.png) [@SlackerInc](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SlackerInc)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-npr-story-on-reincarnation/678142/13 "2014-01-08T05:27:11Z")
I would not only want to see more evidence that this _has_ happened, I would want some kind of explanation for how this _could_ have happened. There is just so much overwhelming proof that our thoughts, our personalities, and our memories are physically created, and reside, in our brains. Think of how much people’s personalities change from head injuries; now think about a plane crash! So someone’s neurons get copied into the brain of a little kid? The only remotely comceivable way for this to happen IMO is as a practical joke played by some very advanced aliens (thinking of Arthur C. Clarke’s famous quote about advanced tech and magic) At this point, hearing about the book, my supposition is that the whole thing is a hoax on the part of the boy’s parents. ---
**Author:** ![citizenzen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a8b319/32.png) [@citizenzen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/citizenzen)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-npr-story-on-reincarnation/678142/14 "2014-01-08T05:45:58Z")
I remember watching some cheesy TV show that asked the question, “How could this two year-old know so much about Heaven and Hell?” :eek: He was interviewed in front of a lurid religious painting that hung in his grandmother’s house where he had been raised. :rolleyes: Where did he come up with it? :smack: ---
**Author:** ![MacCat](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/maccat/32/216_2.png) [@MacCat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MacCat)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 1:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-npr-story-on-reincarnation/678142/15 "2014-01-08T13:17:21Z")
> [@buddha\_david](#): > > And in either case, the whole story may be one gigantic coincidence; when you consider how many American pilots were lost in the Japanese Theater, it’s no surprise, statistically speaking, that one of them bore a name as common as “Jack Larsen” – heck, the name itself may have come from a TV documentary, but that’s a major stretch. Jack Larsen played cub reporter Jimmy Olsen in the hugely popular _Adventures Of Superman_ TV show. Debuted in 1952, cancelled in 1958 and reruns for many, many years. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-npr-story-on-reincarnation/678142/16 "2014-01-08T13:25:44Z")
> [@gigi](#): > > "At 18 months old, his father, Bruce Leininger, took James to the Kavanaugh Flight Museum in Dallas, Texas, where the toddler remained transfixed by World War II aircraft. " > > I can rebut this right there. No 18-month-old can be the father of a toddler. Funny. But gee, I wonder if that museum had exhibits and videos about crashing fighter planes that an 18-month-old might have seen? Add some “help” from the therapist and parents and voila, some very specific “memories” emerge. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-npr-story-on-reincarnation/678142/17 "2014-01-08T13:44:24Z")
> [@SlackerInc](#): > > Part of what bothers me is that the fact that I in no way give any credence to the possibility that this actually represents reincarnation forces me to confront the accusations my friends level, namely that my beliefs are just as faith-based as theirs on some level. Normally that accusation is easily dismissed; but in this case there is some truth to it. Nah. Marked skepticism about stories like this is based on reality, including the many many such stories that have been debunked by solid evidence and reasoning. It’s a favorite meme among the woo crowd - “your science is just a religion har har har”, but using one’s critical faculties and seeking rational explanations to phenomena is the _antithesis_ of religion. I’m an authority on this. I got an A- in my freshman tutorial based on the required paper “Is A Scientist Religious”?\* \*I would have gotten an A except the professor (of chemistry) was a devout Christian. Then again, maybe not. It wasn’t that good a paper. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-npr-story-on-reincarnation/678142/18 "2014-01-08T15:31:51Z")
> [@DonnieBarko](#): > > Also, the boy’s parents contacted the dead pilot’s sister, and the boy told her a few things that, apparently, only the deceased man would have known. One detail that I recall had something to do with a painting that was kept in the attic of their old home (the home of the deceased WWII pilot). I think the boy also called her by a name that only the deceased pilot would have called her I totally believe this I also totally believe in John Edward who is, of course, [del]the biggest douche in the universe[/del] a real psychic. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-npr-story-on-reincarnation/678142/19 "2014-01-08T15:42:40Z")
I had seen the story on the kid who thought he was a corsair pilot that was shot down. I assumed he was exposed to various elements of WW-II trivia and it turns out he was. Of course, the TV version had him completely isolated from the world and all of a sudden he’s “remembering” stuff. ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [January 8, 2014, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-npr-story-on-reincarnation/678142/20 "2014-01-08T16:30:11Z")
What we need is a set of journals with what the child actually said, recorded with date, to compare with what the parent’s “research” uncovered. I have no doubt that the “unknowable facts” were far more generic when first uttered, and much of the corroborative detail has been added to an otherwise bald and unconvincing narrative [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-me-rebut-this-npr-story-on-reincarnation/678142.md?page=2)