# Please help truth-check this (Bush v Clinton) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 27, 2007, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187 "2007-10-27T03:06:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![ManiacMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b782af/32.png) [@ManiacMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ManiacMan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2007, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/41 "2007-10-27T22:14:25Z")
Anyways let’s define despicable: > [@](#): > > deserving to be despised Example: Bill Clinton doing JACK SQUAT during the Rwandan Genocide. Now THAT is despicable. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2007, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/42 "2007-10-27T22:14:58Z")
[QUOTE=ManiacMan] What about all those people Saddam killed to take power and all those people he killed (along with his sons) to keep power? They seemed to be pretty radical to me… [/QUOTE] Is anyone, anywhere claiming that Saddam was some sort of nice guy? Everyone knows he was a brutal dictator. But our invasion managed to make a bad situation worse. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2007, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/43 "2007-10-27T22:28:56Z")
[QUOTE=ManiacMan] What about all those people Saddam killed to take power and all those people he killed (along with his sons) to keep power? They seemed to be pretty radical to me… [/QUOTE] It doesn’t matter if they were devil worshipping baby eaters; the fact that they were evil doesn’t make us good. They were mass murderers; Bush and his supporters are mass murderers. And **worse** for Iraq than Saddam. [QUOTE=ManiacMan] Anyways let’s define despicable: Example: Bill Clinton doing JACK SQUAT during the Rwandan Genocide. Now THAT is despicable. [/QUOTE] True. So ? Despicability is not a conserved quality; no matter how bad Clinton was, that doesn’t make Bush anything other than a monster. ---
**Author:** ![ManiacMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b782af/32.png) [@ManiacMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ManiacMan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2007, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/44 "2007-10-27T22:32:32Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] Is anyone, anywhere claiming that Saddam was some sort of nice guy? Everyone knows he was a brutal dictator. But our invasion managed to make a bad situation worse. [/QUOTE] Transitional times are always the worst. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2007, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/45 "2007-10-27T22:36:23Z")
[QUOTE=ManiacMan] Transitional times are always the worst. [/QUOTE] Transitioning to what ? An Islamic dictatorship or Saddam Version Two ? How is that an improvement over Saddam ? Although either will likely be an improvement over us. And how do you know that Iraq **is** “transitioning” to anything else ? This could be the new indefinite norm for Iraq. ---
**Author:** ![ManiacMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b782af/32.png) [@ManiacMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ManiacMan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2007, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/46 "2007-10-27T22:40:16Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] It doesn’t matter if they were devil worshipping baby eaters; the fact that they were evil doesn’t make us good. They were mass murderers; Bush and his supporters are mass murderers. And **worse** for Iraq than Saddam. True. So ? Despicability is not a conserved quality; no matter how bad Clinton was, that doesn’t make Bush anything other than a monster. [/QUOTE] Worse according to whom? You? Pfft give me a break. Clinton will always have the poop smear of failed foreign policy smeared on his face because he just sat around on his butt, and let the Rwandan genocide happen. ---
**Author:** ![ManiacMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b782af/32.png) [@ManiacMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ManiacMan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2007, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/47 "2007-10-27T22:41:55Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] Transitioning to what ? An Islamic dictatorship or Saddam Version Two ? How is that an improvement over Saddam ? Although either will likely be an improvement over us. And how do you know that Iraq **is** “transitioning” to anything else ? This could be the new indefinite norm for Iraq. [/QUOTE] Transitioning to hopefully something better than what was and what is currently. And I don’t know for sure I can only hope. Nothing happens when people don’t try though. Thats why bad things happen…good people sit on their asses and don’t do anything but think. I would glady trade in anything and everything I own for a president who actually ACTS on his words instead of someone like Bill Clinton who just smiled and acted like he was president. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2007, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/48 "2007-10-27T22:44:47Z")
[QUOTE=ManiacMan] Worse according to whom? You? Pfft give me a break. [/QUOTE] According to the Iraqis, and according to any remotely objective standard I know of. They are less free, less safe, less prosperous, and with less of a future than they were before America reached out in it’s greed and malice and stupidity and devastated Iraq. [QUOTE=ManiacMan] Clinton will always have the poop smear of failed foreign policy smeared on his face because he just sat around on his butt, and let the Rwandan genocide happen. [/QUOTE] Again, so ? ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2007, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/49 "2007-10-27T22:49:35Z")
[QUOTE=ManiacMan] Transitioning to hopefully something better than what was and what is currently. [/quote] There is no reason at all to believe that. [QUOTE=ManiacMan] Thats why bad things happen…good people sit on their asses and don’t do anything but think. [/quote] We, however, are NOT the ‘good people’. We are the BAD people. We are the ones doing the bad things, not the ones stopping them. [QUOTE=ManiacMan] I would glady trade in anything and everything I own for a president who actually ACTS on his words instead of someone like Bill Clinton who just smiled and acted like he was president. [/QUOTE] Bill Clinton did far more good than the monster known as George Bush. Not that doing so is difficult. And why do you keep bringing up Clinton ? ---
**Author:** ![ManiacMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b782af/32.png) [@ManiacMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ManiacMan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2007, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/50 "2007-10-27T22:51:43Z")
[QUOTE=Tapioca Dextrin] So if one accusation out of fifty or so might have some sort of basis in fact behind it, the other forty nine magically become true to?? 😕 :dubious: [/QUOTE] It demonstrates what kind of cards certain houses are built from. Everyone has some wink-wink nudge-nudge comment about one or more negative aspects about Clinton but fail to see the whole picture. Its not Bill Clinton had a consensual affair, and lied about it but really more about Bill Clinton lying right to million’s and million’s of American’s about it, but he also lied to the judge’s face. It just shows how dispicable Clinton was in terms of integrity. ---
**Author:** ![ManiacMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b782af/32.png) [@ManiacMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ManiacMan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2007, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/51 "2007-10-27T22:52:45Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] According to the Iraqis, and according to any remotely objective standard I know of. They are less free, less safe, less prosperous, and with less of a future than they were before America reached out in it’s greed and malice and stupidity and devastated Iraq. Again, so ? [/QUOTE] Its not US soldiers killing them and murdering them but outsiders from other countries. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2007, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/52 "2007-10-27T22:56:28Z")
[QUOTE=ManiacMan] Its not US soldiers killing them and murdering them but outsiders from other countries. [/QUOTE] Actually foregn fighters comprise a tiny fraction of the Iraqi insurgents. ---
**Author:** ![ManiacMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b782af/32.png) [@ManiacMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ManiacMan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2007, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/53 "2007-10-27T22:56:40Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] There is no reason at all to believe that. We, however, are NOT the ‘good people’. We are the BAD people. We are the ones doing the bad things, not the ones stopping them. Bill Clinton did far more good than the monster known as George Bush. Not that doing so is difficult. And why do you keep bringing up Clinton ? [/QUOTE] There is NO reason NOT to believe that so what’s your point? No we are the good people trying to stop the suicide bombers last I heard. Not to mention many other good things that I am proud to say are happening because of our presence over there. Despite some snags and some really bad examples of what war brings out in people the area will reach stability. I brought him up because of the word despicable… ---
**Author:** ![ManiacMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b782af/32.png) [@ManiacMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ManiacMan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2007, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/54 "2007-10-27T22:57:42Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] Actually foregn fighters comprise a tiny fraction of the Iraqi insurgents. [/QUOTE] Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2007, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/55 "2007-10-27T23:03:57Z")
[QUOTE=ManiacMan] Cite? [/QUOTE] Google “Iraqi Insurgency” “Foreign fighters” You’ll find all sorts of cites. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2007, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/56 "2007-10-27T23:07:53Z")
[QUOTE=ManiacMan] It demonstrates what kind of cards certain houses are built from. Everyone has some wink-wink nudge-nudge comment about one or more negative aspects about Clinton but fail to see the whole picture. Its not Bill Clinton had a consensual affair, and lied about it but really more about Bill Clinton lying right to million’s and million’s of American’s about it, but he also lied to the judge’s face. It just shows how dispicable Clinton was in terms of integrity. [/QUOTE] He **should** have lied about having an affair; that’s no one’s business but his, his wife’s and the other woman’s. Better of course if he’d just said that it was no one’s business. [QUOTE=ManiacMan] There is NO reason NOT to believe that so what’s your point? [/quote] There are many reasons that Iraq isn’t headed towards anything good. We’ve destroyed them as a country, wrecked their infrastructure, discredited democracy, let the Islamic fanatics gain power, driven out or killed their best and brightest, and in general made a mess that appears unfixable. There is, on the other hand, no reason to believe that ANY good result will come of our monstrous acts. [QUOTE=ManiacMan] No we are the good people trying to stop the suicide bombers last I heard. [/quote] Who **were not there** before us. And we only care because they might blow some of us up. And simply by invading, conquering, killing, and destroying we proved that we are not the good people. We are a predator nation that feeds upon the weak. [QUOTE=ManiacMan] Not to mention many other good things that I am proud to say are happening because of our presence over there. [/quote] Like what ? If you are so proud, name them. [QUOTE=ManiacMan] Despite some snags and some really bad examples of what war brings out in people the area will reach stability. [/quote] Stability under a dictatorship, at best. And there have not been “some” snags; there’s been nothing but snags. [QUOTE=ManiacMan] I brought him up because of the word despicable… [/QUOTE] Compared to Bush, Clinton is a moral paragon; a superhuman being of light and justice, who heals with his touch and causes flowers to spring up in his footsteps. ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2007, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/57 "2007-10-27T23:08:49Z")
[QUOTE=ManiacMan] It demonstrates what kind of cards certain houses are built from. Everyone has some wink-wink nudge-nudge comment about one or more negative aspects about Clinton but fail to see the whole picture. Its not Bill Clinton had a consensual affair, and lied about it but really more about Bill Clinton lying right to million’s and million’s of American’s about it, but he also lied to the judge’s face. It just shows how dispicable Clinton was in terms of integrity. [/QUOTE] And how many people did Clinton’s lies kill? Bush’s lies have killed **thousands**. > [@ManiacMan](#): > > No we are the good people trying to stop the suicide bombers last I heard. What ones? The ones who attacked the WTC and Pentagon, who were not associated with Iraq? Or the ones who are attacking now after we invaded and removed the controls that were upon them? ---
**Author:** ![ManiacMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b782af/32.png) [@ManiacMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ManiacMan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2007, 11:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/58 "2007-10-27T23:17:48Z")
[QUOTE=Larry Borgia] Google “Iraqi Insurgency” “Foreign fighters” You’ll find all sorts of cites. [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Borgia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/larry_borgia/32/156_2.png) [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2007, 11:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/59 "2007-10-27T23:20:18Z")
[QUOTE=ManiacMan] :rolleyes: [/QUOTE] :rolleyes: yourself. The fact that foreign fighters are a tiny percentage of Iraqi insurgents is common knowledge. I wasn’t aware until now it was even disputed by the right wing. ---
**Author:** ![ManiacMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b782af/32.png) [@ManiacMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ManiacMan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2007, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/60 "2007-10-27T23:24:57Z")
[QUOTE=Der Trihs] He **should** have lied about having an affair; that’s no one’s business but his, his wife’s and the other woman’s. Better of course if he’d just said that it was no one’s business. [/QUOTE] So if he lies about something as trivial as an affair what other kinds of lies must he have told during his presidency? [QUOTE=Der Trihs] There are many reasons that Iraq isn’t headed towards anything good. We’ve destroyed them as a country, wrecked their infrastructure, discredited democracy, let the Islamic fanatics gain power, driven out or killed their best and brightest, and in general made a mess that appears unfixable. There is, on the other hand, no reason to believe that ANY good result will come of our monstrous acts. [/quote] Thats the way life goes…one never truly rises up until one hits rock bottom. [QUOTE=Der Trihs] Who **were not there** before us. And we only care because they might blow some of us up. And simply by invading, conquering, killing, and destroying we proved that we are not the good people. We are a predator nation that feeds upon the weak. [/quote] No we are a benevolent nation who decides to take action when others refuse. [QUOTE=Der Trihs] Like what ? If you are so proud, name them. [/quote] Democratic elections for starters. [QUOTE=Der Trihs] Stability under a dictatorship, at best. And there have not been “some” snags; there’s been nothing but snags. [/quote] So why dont you figure out a better way? [QUOTE=Der Trihs] Compared to Bush, Clinton is a moral paragon; a superhuman being of light and justice, who heals with his touch and causes flowers to spring up in his footsteps. [/QUOTE] More like compared to Bush Bill Cinton’s touch is only applied to stuff that he can benefit directly from. Maybe if Clinton had actually done something about Rwanda he would be worth more than mouse farts… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187.md?page=4)