# Please help truth-check this (Bush v Clinton) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 27, 2007, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187 "2007-10-27T03:06:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [October 30, 2007, 10:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/161 "2007-10-30T10:14:29Z")
[QUOTE=magellan01] Increased to what? How high should they be? And how high is too high? [/QUOTE] How about enough to pay our bills? The Republican mantra of “always cut taxes, always cut taxes” is a gutless and easy way to win votes but it’s a surefire way to bankrupt the nation. ---
**Author:** ![ManiacMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b782af/32.png) [@ManiacMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ManiacMan)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/162 "2007-10-31T05:15:26Z")
[QUOTE=Ale] I suggest you ponder on the fact that the UN is not just the Security Council. [/QUOTE] Fine. But do they actually _do_ anything? Seriously… ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 7:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/163 "2007-10-31T07:34:31Z")
[QUOTE=ManiacMan] Fine. But do they actually _do_ anything? Seriously… [/QUOTE] Are you really not aware of the UN’s role in the eradication of small pox? Or the Korean War? Or its role in removing land mines in Cambodia? Or its role in negotiating an end to the civil war in Cambodia? Or the role it plays in helping to stop the proliferation of nuclear material? Or the role it played in SARS containment? Or the anti-poverty programs it undertakes? Or its supervision of the international intellectual property system? Seriously… The UN was created by the US, and it has largely served US interests. When it doesn’t, the US can and does ignore it. The US has the best of both worlds when it comes to the UN. ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 4:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/164 "2007-10-31T16:21:07Z")
[QUOTE=ManiacMan] Fine. But do they actually _do_ anything? Seriously… [/QUOTE] Does breaking the back of Iraq’s WMD program count? Between 1991 and 1998, UNSCOM oversaw the destruction of: [ul] [li]48 SCUD missiles[/li][li]5 SCUD launchers[/li][li]50 SCUD warheads[/li][li]40,000 chemical munitions (filled and unfilled)[/li][li]295 tonnes of mustard gas[/li][li]Roughly 120 tonnes of nerve gas (different types)[/li][li]A few thousand tonnes of CW precursor chemicals[/li][li]A few hundred aerial bombs[/li][li]Tens of thousands of tonnes of BW growth media[/li][li] - and the Al Hakum BW development centre.[/li][/ul] - seriously. Cite: [UNSCOM results (PDF)](http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/reports/2004/australia_iraq-wmd-intell_01mar04_appendixd.pdf) ETA: Cite ---
**Author:** ![ManiacMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b782af/32.png) [@ManiacMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ManiacMan)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 10:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/165 "2007-10-31T22:26:44Z")
[QUOTE=BrightNShiny] Are you really not aware of the UN’s role in the eradication of small pox? Or the Korean War? Or its role in removing land mines in Cambodia? Or its role in negotiating an end to the civil war in Cambodia? Or the role it plays in helping to stop the proliferation of nuclear material? Or the role it played in SARS containment? Or the anti-poverty programs it undertakes? Or its supervision of the international intellectual property system? Seriously… The UN was created by the US, and it has largely served US interests. When it doesn’t, the US can and does ignore it. The US has the best of both worlds when it comes to the UN. [/QUOTE] Well than I guess people around the world can thank the United States… ---
**Author:** ![ManiacMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b782af/32.png) [@ManiacMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ManiacMan)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/166 "2007-10-31T22:43:31Z")
Cite: [UNSCOM results (PDF)](http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/library/reports/2004/australia_iraq-wmd-intell_01mar04_appendixd.pdf) > [@](#): > > The Commission has little or no confidence in the accounting for proscribed items for which physical evidence is lacking or inconclusive, documentation is sparse or nonexistent, and coherence and consistency is lacking. These include, for example: quantities and types of munitions available for BW filling; quantities and types of munitions filled with BW agents; quantities and type of bulk agents produced; quantities of bulk agents used in filling; quantities of bulk agents destroyed; quantities of growth media acquired for the program; quantities of growth media used/consumed; and when or whether the program ended. In addition the Commission has no confidence that all bulk agents have been destroyed; that no BW munitions or weapons remain in Iraq; and that a BW capability does not exist in Iraq. Did you notice that some weapons were not accounted for, or were missing? Where did those go? Even UNSCOM says that they have little or no faith in the accounting of WMD in which physical evidence is lacking etc. etc. etc. So did those missing weapons grow legs? Evaporate? Get beamed up to the mothership? Hey man thanks for reinforcing that Iraq probably still had WMD sometime before the invasion and transported them out of the country, or perhaps buried them in the ground. Seriously, THANKS! ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/167 "2007-10-31T22:49:50Z")
Do you realize you’re quoting from a document released in 1999, and that additional inspections occurred in 2002 and 2003? ---
**Author:** ![ManiacMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b782af/32.png) [@ManiacMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ManiacMan)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/168 "2007-10-31T23:08:45Z")
[QUOTE=Ravenman] Do you realize you’re quoting from a document released in 1999, and that additional inspections occurred in 2002 and 2003? [/QUOTE] Doesn’t matter. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/169 "2007-10-31T23:13:54Z")
[QUOTE=ManiacMan] Did you notice that some weapons were not accounted for, or were missing? [/QUOTE] Of course I did. > [@](#): > > Where did those go? That question assumes 100% correct bookkeeping and unlimited shelf life. They may not have been there in the first place. They may have rusted away quietly. Missiles may have been broken up for parts… In the case of CW and precursor chemicals, they may (actually, they almost certainly will) have degraded. We’re not exactly dealing with impeccable bookkeeping, here. Did you stop to check the numbers, by the way? 9 missiles, 50 warheads, 2500 chemical shells (500 filled) and 1,5 tons of VX unaccounted for. Not what I’d call an impressive arsenal, partivularly as the VX has a 3-5 year shelf life. > [@](#): > > Even UNSCOM says that they have little or no faith in the accounting of WMD in which physical evidence is lacking etc. etc. etc. I note that the UN’s word is suddenly good. > [@](#): > > So did those missing weapons grow legs? _Evaporate?_ Get beamed up to the mothership? My italics - but in the case of CW, you’re pretty close. I suggest you show some evidence of them having physical existence before you deduce that them being absent is proof that they exist somewhere else. I failed to notice that the agitprop leading up to the Iraq war listed 9 rusting Scuds and 1.5 tonne of expired VX. Be that as it may, are you going to concede that UNSCOM “did something” in this case? The Iraq war got - ehm - roughly 500 pre-1991 CW shells out of circulation. That’s 1.25% of what UNSCOM removed. UNMOVIC of course followed up during the prelude to the invasion, but were pulled when it got just a little bit too obvious that the US intelligence was crap. ---
**Author:** ![ManiacMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b782af/32.png) [@ManiacMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ManiacMan)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/170 "2007-10-31T23:30:57Z")
Knock-Knock? Who there? Cleopatra… Cleopatra who? Cleopatra Queen of Denial 🆒 OK I can concede that the UN does stuff… ---
**Author:** ![Ravenman](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ravenman/32/2929_2.png) [@Ravenman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ravenman)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2007, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/171 "2007-10-31T23:40:27Z")
[QUOTE=ManiacMan] Doesn’t matter. [/QUOTE] Have you read the CIA’s report yet? ---
**Author:** ![Spiny\_Norman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9de0a6/32.png) [@Spiny\_Norman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spiny_Norman)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/172 "2007-11-01T00:24:50Z")
[QUOTE=ManiacMan] OK I can concede that the UN does stuff… [/QUOTE] I appreciate it. As for the discrepancies, neither UNMOVIC nor the different post-invasion inspection programs have found any evidence of usable WMD, nor of a cache being moved. The Duelfer report, for one, is pretty clear in stating that SH’s intent was to keep the skillsets intact, in order to rebuild capability in the future. Or, as the report states re current stockpiles: > [@](#): > > based on the statements of former senior officers, the Iraqi military - including the RG - allegedly had no plans for employing WMD, had not practiced tactical use of WMD since 1991, had no available stockpiles of WMD, had not deployed any WMD to tactical units and had no special infrastructure in place for handling WMD. If there were in fact usable WMD in Iraq and the US failed to secure them, the only conclusion is that the invasion did not achieve a pretty important strategic goal. So either the invasion was an utter failure re WMD or the pre-war information on Iraqi WMD was flawed, be it due to incompetence or deceit. There’s a rather complete lack of post-war intelligence supporting the first hypothesis. So, perhaps the logical conclusion is that nothing was found because there was nothing to find? ---
**Author:** ![BrightNShiny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@BrightNShiny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrightNShiny)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2007, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187/173 "2007-11-01T02:08:55Z")
[QUOTE=ManiacMan] Knock-Knock? Who there? Cleopatra… Cleopatra who? Cleopatra Queen of Denial 🆒 OK I can concede that the UN does stuff… [/QUOTE] Given that you have so little knowledge of the UN, why should anyone pay any attention to anything you have to say on US foreign policy? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-help-truth-check-this-bush-v-clinton/424187.md?page=8)