Please help with advice on training dog not to pull on leash

In My Humble Opinion
21

[QUOTE=Barrett Bonden]
The only sticky issue is that the dog isn’t actually mine. The dog’s owners don’t seem to mind that I’ve been a bit of an enforcer so far. Still, I worry that if I bring up classes, they may see it as an implied criticism.
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This could be a stumbling block. The thing about obedience training/classes, as you point out, is that they are as much for the owner/handler as for the dog. So if the dog’s owners aren’t going to use the same methods, the training isn’t likely to stick with the dog.

And, as I think someone has pointed out, the whole idea of “heel” is to keep the dog at your side and slightly behind, so that he can see your every move and stop when you stop, etc. If he’s so far ahead that he can’t see you, that’s too far.

22

[QUOTE=kathmandu]
You’ve gotten some good advice here. It might help to know what breed the dog is - I have a Bernese, which were bred to pull carts and sleds, and many of them are very difficult to train not to pull on the leash. I have resorted to the Gentle Leader for mine, which works very well, but ideally I would like to take her for a walk with a regular collar and leash. I’ve heard the “tree” method is the most effective in the long run, but it often takes a very long time for the dog to catch on (which is the case with mine).
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Kathmandu, just FYI - my dog was on her Gentle Leader for about 3 years and now walks very well without it. We do now use a snake choke on her (smoother, lighter, won’t get caught on itself) just for our own comfort so we know we can “pop” her. I think she was on the GL longer than she needed, and she’s also an extremely strong, large dog so I felt better using it.

You’ll be able to walk your dog w/o a gentle leader soon enough!

23

[QUOTE=kathmandu]
You’ve gotten some good advice here.
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Yes, and I am very grateful!

[QUOTE=kathmandu]
It might help to know what breed the dog is - I have a Bernese, which were bred to pull carts and sleds, and many of them are very difficult to train not to pull on the leash.
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She’s part yellow lab, mixed with something smaller. Picture a dog that looks almost exactly like a lab, but 2/3 the size.

[QUOTE=Scarlett67]
So if the dog’s owners aren’t going to use the same methods, the training isn’t likely to stick with the dog.
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This is a really interesting issue. I have a friend who claims that a dog will never truly obey anyone except his owner(s). She says that the dog may do what I say, but will only ever be “humoring me.” My response was that I don’t care what the dog’s motives are, as long as she does what I want her to do.

I’ve read that dogs can be confused by inconsistency in training from different people. So far it seems to me that dogs know how much they can get away with and with whom. From my purely selfish point of view, if the dog and I understand each other when we’re together, I don’t mind what she does when she’s under other “house rules.”

(On Preview) If she were my dog, I would try to be more thorough about enforcing behavior with every human (not just me). Since she’s not mine, I don’t think it’s my place to dictate how she should behave with her owners, particularly since they’re not complaining. My whole motive with the no-pull training is to make it safer for us to run together.

24

I have a long retractable leash with a brake - it is a very good tool for teaching a dog to stop pulling. Basically, I let her stop and smell stuff as we’re walking - or run ahead - but as soon as the leash is about to run out I start hitting the brake - usually brake-release-brake-release but sometimes I just kind of drag it so it vibrates. The resulting firm tugs are her signal that she’s about to be either dragged behind me or choked as she hits the end of the leash. These “warnings” are very effective at getting her to keep pace with me, and the retractable leash is a great tool for letting her wander a bit while still being under control. When she’s having trouble with the concept - usually because of some distraction (cats, cows, whatever), I shorten the leash to less than two feet. This extreme measure of control lets her know it’s important to stay by me - though she may still pull I have control over her every move.

25

[QUOTE=Barrett Bonden]
My whole motive with the no-pull training is to make it safer for us to run together.
[/QUOTE]
How often do you run? 3-5 times a week. Do you have time to spend five minutes after each run working on basic obedience? If so, a training class will be worth it. Especially if you have a limited set of goals (sit, stay, heel, no jumping.)

Find a used copy of Karen Pryor’s* Don’t Shoot the Dog* on Amazon. It will open your eyes WRT dog psychology, behavior, and training.

Jean Donaldson’s The Culture Clash is another good one.

26

[QUOTE=ZipperJJ]
Kathmandu, just FYI - my dog was on her Gentle Leader for about 3 years and now walks very well without it. We do now use a snake choke on her (smoother, lighter, won’t get caught on itself) just for our own comfort so we know we can “pop” her. I think she was on the GL longer than she needed, and she’s also an extremely strong, large dog so I felt better using it.

You’ll be able to walk your dog w/o a gentle leader soon enough!
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That’s great to know! She’s only one, and technically still a puppy (and quite exhuberant), so I’m hoping she’ll calm down with time. I am getting quite the upper body workout between keeping her in line and toting around a toddler and a baby, though.

27

[QUOTE=cowgirl]
My understanding of these no-pull harnasses is that they don’t change the dog’s behaviour, so if s/he goes back on a collar/leash the pulling will resume. Is that correct?

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That’s my biggest issue with things like no-pull harnesses and head halters like gentle leaders–they don’t actually train the dog, at all, so what you have is a gadget that keeps the dog from doing anything too obnoxious, but doesn’t cause them to understand what it is, specifically, that you don’t want them to do. The second that gadget isn’t on their body or head, they’re out of control again. Forgive me for saying so, but they seem like lazy fixes, to me. Too many people use them as bandaids when they don’t want to bother training their dog.
I would be especially skeptical of a professional dog trainer who routinely recommended them.

Yes ma’am, I came in to preach the Koehler gospel and see you’ve beaten me to the punch :wink:

28

We tried “being a tree” last night. It took about 30 minutes to get up and down the street. She figured out that I didn’t want her to pull hard, so now she stays just far enough ahead that the leash is straight out but it doesn’t pull. I’m going to choose to view that as progress.

I brought a pocketful of food but she decided not to be food motivated. (Which is very odd, for her.) Tomorrow we’ll try using tastier treats. These may make it easier to communicate that I want her closer to me.

I haven’t given up on the idea of changing her collar either, but that will take longer to broach with the owners.

29

[QUOTE=Barrett Bonden]
We tried “being a tree” last night. It took about 30 minutes to get up and down the street. She figured out that I didn’t want her to pull hard, so now she stays just far enough ahead that the leash is straight out but it doesn’t pull. I’m going to choose to view that as progress.
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That is progress, but the biggest problem I have with “passive” methods of dog training is that it shouldn’t take 30 minutes to communicate something like “don’t pull”. You’re teaching her shades of pulling, and she’s confused–if she pulls hard, she only sometimes gets somewhere, and if she pulls a little bit, she gets where she wants to go. How hard can she pull? Does it change minute to minute depending on your frustration level? What about when you were done with the walk and heading back to the house?
I like clear-cut rules, and so do dogs. Rules like “no pulling” :wink:
Try Koehler’s trick tonight–whenever she forges ahead, the second her head passes your knee, just do an about-face and walk in the other direction. If she bolts past again, just pivot again. Don’t say anything to her, let her figure out that she needs to keep an eye on you because you are the one deciding where you’re going next. The lessons are learned much more quickly when they’re making the mental connections that it’s their behavior that causes the correction. Treats are okay, but Koehler’s biggest issue with food as motivator is that you’re not always going to have a pocket full of hot dog bites, and you don’t want her making decisions about her behavior based on whether or not you have something good to offer her.

30

[QUOTE=NajaNivea]
Try Koehler’s trick tonight–whenever she forges ahead, the second her head passes your knee, just do an about-face and walk in the other direction. If she bolts past again, just pivot again. Don’t say anything to her, let her figure out that she needs to keep an eye on you because you are the one deciding where you’re going next.
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All right, we’ll try that this very evening. This sounds like a good field-behind-the-house activity because I don’t want to give her that much slack on the sidewalk. The good thing about what you suggest is that **I’ll **get some more exercise, even if she doesn’t. :stuck_out_tongue:

31

[QUOTE=NajaNivea]
Treats are okay, but Koehler’s biggest issue with food as motivator is that you’re not always going to have a pocket full of hot dog bites, and you don’t want her making decisions about her behavior based on whether or not you have something good to offer her.
[/QUOTE]

Hence the suggestion for an intermittent reward cycle. That is, after the dog performs the action a few times to a reward, then at completely random times, you give a reward or you don’t. A consistent reward cycle - perform action, get reward - fails the second or third (or if you’re lucky, the forth) time the reward isn’t presented. “Well, guess *that *gravy train dried up…Let’s go back to pulling!” one can imagine the dog thinking. With an intermittent schedule, the dogs going to repeat the action regardless of the presence of a reward, “thinking” that perhaps this time, the reward will be presented. “After all, it’s only *sometimes *that I get a treat from the magic hip pocket…maybe this time! Ok, no…maybe this time! This time? OH BOY, THIS TIME, YIPPEE! It still works! How 'bout now? Now? Now??”

For more information on intermittent reward schedules and their surprising rates of effectiveness, see Skinner et al, or watch a person on a slot machine or a skeevy guy in a bar hitting on women, or search GD for accusations of “confirmation bias”.

32

Koehler Update: we went out to a nearby ROW and I let out 15 feet of leash. For the next half hour, it was kind of like playing with a giant furry yo yo. There were a few moments when she was really with me and followed well. On the whole, though, my changing directions didn’t seem to faze her much. I marched in a limited pattern; she galloped in a fifteen foot orbit. Obviously Rome wasn’t built in a day so we’re not giving up.

With that much leash to play with, at least one leg was tangled ninety percent of the time. (And occasionally one of my limbs as well.) I am a little worried that the direction changing yank might injure her if the leash is wrapped around her leg wrong. Any hints on leash management?

Also, she likes to play with her leash. Part of the (short) time when she was following me closely, it was because she was grabbing at the leash.

Also, I need to remember bug spray next time.

33

[QUOTE=Barrett Bonden]

This is a really interesting issue. I have a friend who claims that a dog will never truly obey anyone except his owner(s). She says that the dog may do what I say, but will only ever be “humoring me.” My response was that I don’t care what the dog’s motives are, as long as she does what I want her to do.

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That’s not true. After a guide dog puppy goes back for the next level of training, they had better listen to the new trainer right away, and do all the behaviors the raiser has taught, or she gets career changed right away. Ditto when the dog goes with her partner.

It might depend on how smart the dog is. Our pet dog, who is very smart, knows to beg from my wife who feeds him, never from me.

BTW, we use gentle leaders with our guide dog puppies. They are useful in getting their heads off the ground, since no sniffing is allowed, and in helping to enforce the right position. We’ve never had to use them more than four months or so, but they go back on if required for a refresher.

When you get a puppy you get a guide, and you go to frequent meetings where advice is given, so consistency is good.

34

[QUOTE=Contrapuntal]
Oh, I agree. I meant to imply that the OP should not expect too much too soon; but you are exactly right about 8 months not being too young to start.

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You start training guide dog puppies as soon as you get them - at about 8 weeks, and I’m pretty sure the volunteers who walk the puppies before that do some training also. You say “Do your business” every time they relieve, and it is astonishing how fast they learn to relieve on command.
It’s never too early, though you have to be patient.

35

[QUOTE=WhyNot]
Hence the suggestion for an intermittent reward cycle.
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Oh, believe me, I’m well studied on all four quadrants of operant conditioning. While I am absolutely not averse to throwing the occasional food reward into the mix, I just don’t want my dog’s focused on treats. I want him working for approval and affection.
[QUOTE=WhyNot]
For more information on intermittent reward schedules and their surprising rates of effectiveness… search GD for accusations of “confirmation bias”.
[/QUOTE]

:smiley:

36

[QUOTE=Barrett Bonden]
Koehler Update: we went out to a nearby ROW and I let out 15 feet of leash. For the next half hour, it was kind of like playing with a giant furry yo yo. There were a few moments when she was really with me and followed well. On the whole, though, my changing directions didn’t seem to faze her much. I marched in a limited pattern; she galloped in a fifteen foot orbit. Obviously Rome wasn’t built in a day so we’re not giving up.

With that much leash to play with, at least one leg was tangled ninety percent of the time. (And occasionally one of my limbs as well.) I am a little worried that the direction changing yank might injure her if the leash is wrapped around her leg wrong. Any hints on leash management?

Also, she likes to play with her leash. Part of the (short) time when she was following me closely, it was because she was grabbing at the leash.

Also, I need to remember bug spray next time.
[/QUOTE]

Well, you won’t like it, but the answers to all of this are found in the first chapter of the book. She should learn to manage the leash on her own, fairly early. I spent the first week trying to keep my pup’s legs untangled, but after going back and reading the thing again, realized that me doing the job for him wasn’t teaching him anything. He learned within a day or two to keep his legs clear, once I left it up to him.

I really would recommend reading the book–start to finish, don’t skip a thing. When you’re done, start from the very beginning, and follow it to the letter.

Don’t let her grab the leash, correct her for that. It’s play, but mouthiness on the leash can be a dominance challenge, too.

37

[QUOTE=NajaNivea]
my dog’s focused
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Err… dog’s attention focused

38

[QUOTE=NajaNivea]
Well, you won’t like it, but the answers to all of this are found in the first chapter of the book.
[/QUOTE]

Sure thing. (Why won’t I like it?)

[QUOTE=NajaNivea]
She should learn to manage the leash on her own, fairly early. I spent the first week trying to keep my pup’s legs untangled, but after going back and reading the thing again, realized that me doing the job for him wasn’t teaching him anything. He learned within a day or two to keep his legs clear, once I left it up to him.
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If that’s the recommendation, then that’s what I’ll do. Did the tangling bother your dog? Because it doesn’t seem to bother my pal, so I don’t know that she has a lot of incentive to fix it herself. By the time I’m pulling her in the opposite direction it’s become too tight for her to extract herself, usually.

39

[QUOTE=Barrett Bonden]
Sure thing. (Why won’t I like it?)

If that’s the recommendation, then that’s what I’ll do. Did the tangling bother your dog? Because it doesn’t seem to bother my pal, so I don’t know that she has a lot of incentive to fix it herself. By the time I’m pulling her in the opposite direction it’s become too tight for her to extract herself, usually.
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Mostly said tongue-in-cheek, because it’s not really a quick answer.
My dog is the kind of guy who, while practicing heeling, would walk head-first into a telephone pole, bounce off, and keep right on going with no apparent notice. He certainly wasn’t fussy about the leash around his legs, but learned to pick his feet up and shake the line off to keep himself from going flat on his face.
There is a process to long-line work, too. He recommends a week of foundation work wherein you introduce the dog to the concept of a line between you and them as a tool of communication then week by week, build that up to the kind of focus you see in competition. The about-face thing kind of jumps into the middle of the first week or two of training. It works very quickly for dogs who already know what a leash is all about, and that there exist rules which are to be followed, but maybe don’t have a solid grasp on what precisely those rules are. Dogs that only know the rudimentary details, that a leash exists to restrain them from doing whatever crosses their brain, need some more foundation work before it “clicks”.
I loaned my copy to a friend with a new lab puppy a few months ago, I wish I had it on hand, I’d look up the details for you.

One thing I love about Koehler, is that it’s very, very simple, but has an amazing subtlety to it, too. When I said “follow it to the letter”, I meant it. He says things like “after the session, find a nice spot under a tree and relax for twenty minutes. Maybe share a ham sandwich with your pal.” He means it. Twenty quiet minutes down time after a training session for everything to sink in. You wouldn’t think that kind of detail would make much difference, but it really does.

Also, Cowgirl mentioned his writing style. It is really, really funny; he’s sarcastic and his humor is very dry, so some people find it off-putting, taking it at face value.

Check out the library or AbeBooks; it’s out of print so Amazon doesn’t have it, but you can usually find copies at used book stores for around five bucks.

40

You do know that you shouldn’t go running with a dog under a year and that if the dog is at all a bigger breed (lab sized or bigger), two years. Very bad for the hips and knees, setting doggy up for surgery and pain.