# Please Indulge my Pitting of John McCain **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [July 8, 2015, 3:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-indulge-my-pitting-of-john-mccain/724545 "2015-07-08T03:02:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-indulge-my-pitting-of-john-mccain/724545/81 "2015-07-10T13:10:51Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > So we stop fighting ISIS, they take over Syria and much of Iraq, and then a few years down the road they hit the United States or someone they are harboring does it, just like in the case of the Taliban. What do we do then? Even this unlikely scenario (far more likely is that ISIS collapses because it’s just a rabble of murderous thugs that are incapable of governing a hostile populace larger than a few towns, plus the Saudi and Turkish militaries would get involved before this happened) is far, far better than the scenario of “fight ISIS on the ground, kill hundreds of thousands/millions of local people and lose thousands of American lives and waste hundreds of billions of dollars and eventually pull out because there’s no more political will to stay in for a century, leaving a gap for the next version of ISIS to create itself”. There’s no real-world scenario with ground troops that is better for America than any scenario without ground troops. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-indulge-my-pitting-of-john-mccain/724545/82 "2015-07-10T13:18:55Z")
> [@Robot\_Arm](#): > > Is that how you define “winning” against ISIS, when they no longer want to kill us? I’d really like to know how you deploy ground troops against an idea, a desire. The territory they control is not an “idea”. That’s like saying we couldn’t win WWII because you can’t defeat fascism, an idea. > [@](#): > > Conversely, how do you define “losing” from the U.S. perspective? Do you think our capital is in any danger of falling to their troops, for example? Well first, if we can’t win, and we can’t lose, why are we fighting? And why do you support a President who kills people for no good reason? > [@](#): > > You’re arguing against the idea of limited engagement, and in favor of ground troops, and you’re citing Kosovo, really? I’m just trying to figure out what Plan B is. In Kosovo, we never had to go to Plan B, because Milosevic succumbed after 3 months of bombing. ISIS isn’t going to do that. So what’s Plan B? Are we going to just drop bombs for the next 15 years? ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-indulge-my-pitting-of-john-mccain/724545/83 "2015-07-10T13:19:57Z")
> [@](#): > > State actors, regional and local attitudes towards America and American soldiers, power and influence of adversaries (ISIS not being close to the USSR), among lots of other things. Totally uncomparable. The main thing is that the region of Korea didn’t have a population that mostly hates America and American troops with murderous passion. Kurds. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-indulge-my-pitting-of-john-mccain/724545/84 "2015-07-10T13:22:51Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Kurds. What sort of childish nonsense is this? Are you saying that we’d confine all of our military actions to Kurdish areas? Complete nonsense. The Kurds were there in the 00s, and yet it was still a complete disaster, wasting trillions of dollars and thousands of American lives for nothing, and greatly weakening America and strengthening our enemies. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-indulge-my-pitting-of-john-mccain/724545/85 "2015-07-10T13:27:23Z")
What I’m saying is that a) the Kurds are in trouble, b) they are actual allies who like us, and c) we can operate among them without causing hatred and getting our people killed by those who are supposed to be on our side. Or we could just abandon them again, I suppose. What did being friends with the US ever get anyone? ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-indulge-my-pitting-of-john-mccain/724545/86 "2015-07-10T13:27:28Z")
A-a-a-and **Adaher** derails a thread once again into something HE wants to talk about. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-indulge-my-pitting-of-john-mccain/724545/87 "2015-07-10T13:28:23Z")
It’s the PIt. Get over it. And it’s entirely on topic to boot, since this is a pit thread for John McCain’s supposed warmongerishness. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-indulge-my-pitting-of-john-mccain/724545/88 "2015-07-10T13:35:13Z")
Unlikely, huh? The FBI has already thwarted ISIS attacks here. > **[U.S. law enforcement thwarted plots timed to July 4 | CNN Politics](https://www.cnn.com/2015/07/09/politics/july-4-terror-plot-law-enforcement/index.html)** > > FBI Director James Comey said Thursday that the bureau thwarted ISIS terrorist plots linked to the Fourth of July holiday. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-indulge-my-pitting-of-john-mccain/724545/89 "2015-07-10T13:46:08Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > The territory they control is not an “idea”. That’s like saying we couldn’t win WWII because you can’t defeat fascism, an idea. > > Well first, if we can’t win, and we can’t lose, why are we fighting? And why do you support a President who kills people for no good reason? You’re the one who’s talking about the U.S. winning or losing this war, so I’m trying to find out what you actually mean by that. Sometimes, for example, losing a war means unconditional surrender, dissolution of the government, etc. When the stakes are that high, your whole losing-is-not-an-option approach makes a certain amount of sense. This just doesn’t seem to be one of those cases to me. In a sense, we’ve priced ourselves out of the competition. In a good, old-fashioned war (with uniforms, and tanks, and aircraft carriers), no one has a hope of beating us. That’s why no one will start that kind of war with us. They’ll use insurgencies, they’ll recruit on social media, when we try to contain them they’ll disperse, disappear, and regroup somewhere else. I know you’d like to use this devastating military that we’ve built up, but no one is picking that kind of fight with us. When the only tool you have is a hammer, everything looks like a nail. When the only tool you have is the army, everything looks like a reason to send in ground troops. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-indulge-my-pitting-of-john-mccain/724545/90 "2015-07-10T13:47:39Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Unlikely, huh? The FBI has already thwarted ISIS attacks here. > > [http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/09/politics/july-4-terror-plot-law-enforcement/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2015/07/09/politics/july-4-terror-plot-law-enforcement/index.html) Such attacks would hurt and weaken America far, far less than the costs of ground troops in Iraq. What you advocate for would damage and weaken America far, far more than even the worst potential terrorist attack. The war in Iraq hurt America orders of magnitude more than the 9/11 attacks. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-indulge-my-pitting-of-john-mccain/724545/91 "2015-07-10T13:48:52Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > What I’m saying is that a) the Kurds are in trouble, b) they are actual allies who like us, and c) we can operate among them without causing hatred and getting our people killed by those who are supposed to be on our side. Are you saying all you and John McCain supports is limited involvement in Kurdish territory? > [@](#): > > Or we could just abandon them again, I suppose. What did being friends with the US ever get anyone? If the choice is between ‘abandoning’ the Kurds and full-scale invasion, then it’s a cinch to choose abandoning the Kurds. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-indulge-my-pitting-of-john-mccain/724545/92 "2015-07-10T13:49:45Z")
And the Estonians too, I’m sure. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-indulge-my-pitting-of-john-mccain/724545/93 "2015-07-10T13:51:29Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And the Estonians too, I’m sure. We have a massive multi-national mutual defense treaty with Estonia (and many other nations in the region) that has lasted for decades. The Kurds are not a nation and we have no such massive multi-national mutual defense treaty. So no, not comparable. Please quote the posts you’re responding to. I know I rag on you for being perhaps the laziest poster on the Dope, but it really only takes about 2 extra seconds, and very often the posts you respond to are not immediately preceding. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-indulge-my-pitting-of-john-mccain/724545/94 "2015-07-10T13:57:19Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > And the Estonians too, I’m sure. Estonia is a member of NATO. Altogether different. And has NOTHING to do with the discussion in this thread. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 1:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-indulge-my-pitting-of-john-mccain/724545/95 "2015-07-10T13:59:18Z")
Estonia? \* Estonia?\* What? How the fuck did we…??? What the hell does Estonia…??? No, wait, I’ve changed my mind, we must insist, we must demand to know! Just exactly what is Obama’s policy for Estonia! All we know for sure right now is that it is totally wrong! As details are revealed, then we will know exactly _how_ his policy is wrong, but for now, we just know its wrong. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-indulge-my-pitting-of-john-mccain/724545/96 "2015-07-10T14:01:51Z")
Actually, Obama’s policy for Estonia is to consider an attack on Estonia to be an attack on the US. Of course, I have it on good authority from some Dopers that the US bluffs, so who knows? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-indulge-my-pitting-of-john-mccain/724545/97 "2015-07-10T14:08:19Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Actually, Obama’s policy for Estonia is to consider an attack on Estonia to be an attack on the US. That’s not Obama’s policy, in the sense that he has a policy regarding Daesh. That is the policy of _any US president_, by treaty. ---
**Author:** ![adaher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/dec6dc/32.png) [@adaher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/adaher)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-indulge-my-pitting-of-john-mccain/724545/98 "2015-07-10T14:09:52Z")
True, but he said it straight out, and with other NATO treaty members’ populaces not being too committed to the alliance, it’s important to say it explicitly. Saying it in Estonia was even better. So no, I’m not mad at the President for everything. ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-indulge-my-pitting-of-john-mccain/724545/99 "2015-07-10T14:14:03Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > Well first, if we can’t win, and we can’t lose, why are we fighting? Because we \*can \*contain, and degrade, and, with help from the locals most affected, eventually destroy. > [@](#): > > And why do you support a President who kills people for no good reason? No good reason? The reasons are pretty clear, if as messy as the real world often is. Besides, if he’d stayed out entirely, you’d be yelling a lot louder than that, wouldn’t you? :dubious: > [@](#): > > I’m just trying to figure out what Plan B is. When you do, please inform Boehner and McConnell, so they’ll know what to blame Obama for not doing, okay? > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > The war in Iraq hurt America orders of magnitude more than the 9/11 attacks. Sure did. We threw away a \*lot \*of things we used to stand for, even to the point where there are many who don’t even recognize that we ever did stand for them, or for anything else. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 10, 2015, 2:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-indulge-my-pitting-of-john-mccain/724545/100 "2015-07-10T14:15:24Z")
> [@adaher](#): > > True, but he said it straight out, and with other NATO treaty members’ populaces not being too committed to the alliance, it’s important to say it explicitly. Saying it in Estonia was even better. > > So no, I’m not mad at the President for everything. This is irrelevant to the current discussion, and uncomparable to the Middle East. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-indulge-my-pitting-of-john-mccain/724545.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-indulge-my-pitting-of-john-mccain/724545.md?page=6)