# Please learn to use the subjunctive mood when appropriate
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-learn-to-use-the-subjunctive-mood-when-appropriate/558940
**Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share
**Created:** [October 31, 2010, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-learn-to-use-the-subjunctive-mood-when-appropriate/558940 "2010-10-31T00:36:13Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 1
### Author:  [@dzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dzero)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2010, 12:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-learn-to-use-the-subjunctive-mood-when-appropriate/558940/1 "2010-10-31T00:36:13Z")
[This was covered to some extent here about a month ago](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=580175), but since then I’ve seen numerous thread titles where it should have been used and it was not. I’m not normally a grammar Nazi and I think it’s likely that before much longer, the rule will change to reflect common usage. However in the meantime, not using it when it is required is as much a faux pas as farting during a meeting or using your tie as a napkin.
I’ve gotten used to it and almost never criticize anyone for this error, but I’m always torn because I know how bad it looks (sounds). Even so, I restrain myself as I’ve learned one lesson repeatedly and well - no good deed goes unpunished. This post is the rare exception and is offered mainly in penance for those numerous sins of omission.
The main point to try to learn is regarding the appropriate form when using the past tense of the verb to be, i.e., ‘was’. There is a lot more to the rule and honestly, I doubt that I would pass a test on the subject. But this is the most egregious example and if you can get the hang of this one, virtually no one will crucify you for being a bit off on the rest.
[Grammar girl has a very good and succinct exposition here with several helpful examples.](http://grammar.quickanddirtytips.com/subjunctive-verbs-was-i-were.aspx) Basically, if you want to say ‘I was at the park’, then ‘was’ is the appropriate form. If you want to say ‘I wish I were at the park’, then ‘were’ is the appropriate form. You DO NOT EVER want to say ‘I wish I WAS at the park.’ The effect on a more sensitive ear is similar to fingernails on a . . . I can’t even say it.
The quick and dirty rule I learned is that if you are expressing a conditional, hypothetical, wish or desire, then use the subjunctive (were), otherwise, use the indicative (was).
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### Author:  [@TimeWinder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TimeWinder)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2010, 12:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-learn-to-use-the-subjunctive-mood-when-appropriate/558940/2 "2010-10-31T00:43:15Z")
Best of luck to you on your hopeless crusade. I find that you want to use the carbon-steel or new titanium lances when tilting at windmills, the old wooden ones are just too flimsy.
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### Author:  [@KinkiNipponTourist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KinkiNipponTourist)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2010, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-learn-to-use-the-subjunctive-mood-when-appropriate/558940/3 "2010-10-31T00:50:28Z")
Thank you! I needed this.
Ignorance fought!
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### Author:  [@dzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dzero)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2010, 12:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-learn-to-use-the-subjunctive-mood-when-appropriate/558940/4 "2010-10-31T00:53:07Z")
> [@TimeWinder](#):
>
> Best of luck to you on your hopeless crusade. I find that you want to use the carbon-steel or new titanium lances when tilting at windmills, the old wooden ones are just too flimsy.
Very good. 😃
But seriously, I think of it more as a labor of love rather than something more adversarial such as an enforcement action. 🙂
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### Author:  [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2010, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-learn-to-use-the-subjunctive-mood-when-appropriate/558940/5 "2010-10-31T00:58:23Z")
Oh, god, I’m glad that “If I Was Invisible” song is no longer popular. Most people hated it because it was dumb and creepy; I hated it for the grammar.
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### Author:  [@Chessic\_Sense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chessic_Sense)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2010, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-learn-to-use-the-subjunctive-mood-when-appropriate/558940/6 "2010-10-31T01:29:16Z")
> [@Zsofia](#):
>
> Oh, god, I’m glad that “If I Was Invisible” song is no longer popular. Most people hated it because it was dumb and creepy; I hated it for the grammar.
How do you feel about “The Way I Are”?
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### Author:  [@Gorsnak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorsnak)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2010, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-learn-to-use-the-subjunctive-mood-when-appropriate/558940/7 "2010-10-31T01:48:53Z")
I fear that if I were to use the subjunctive, people would think me pretentious.
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### Author:  [@friedo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/friedo)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2010, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-learn-to-use-the-subjunctive-mood-when-appropriate/558940/8 "2010-10-31T02:01:09Z")
> [@Chessic\_Sense](#):
>
> How do you feel about “The Way I Are”?
I just want to know what condition my condition were in.
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### Author:  [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2010, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-learn-to-use-the-subjunctive-mood-when-appropriate/558940/9 "2010-10-31T02:18:29Z")
I’ve talked to English majors about this. Using was in the subjective mood is already popular enough that it is considered proper English.
And I’ve yet to see anyone use a distinct present subjunctive, despite all this clamoring for the past subjunctive. I even pointed this out once in one of these threads. If you **be** interested, look it up.
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### Author:  [@dzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dzero)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2010, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-learn-to-use-the-subjunctive-mood-when-appropriate/558940/10 "2010-10-31T02:48:10Z")
> [@BigT](#):
>
> I’ve talked to English majors about this. Using was in the subjective mood is already popular enough that it is considered proper English.
>
> And I’ve yet to see anyone use a distinct present subjunctive, despite all this clamoring for the past subjunctive. I even pointed this out once in one of these threads. If you be interested, look it up.
I did note that the rule is so universally ignored in common usage that it is probably moribund. However some forms are still important enough that you will appear uneducated if you do not use them properly - this happens to be one. If someone changes the rules tomorrow though, I will certainly be able to get over it.
[You might like this quote.](http://web.cn.edu/kwheeler/grammar_moods.html) (from the links in the grammar girl article)
> [@](#):
>
> Another, rarer mood is the subjunctive mood (indicating a hypothetical state, a state contrary to reality, such as a wish, a desire, or an imaginary situation). It is harder to explain the subjunctive. Five hundred years ago, English had a highly developed subjunctive mood. However, after the fourteenth century, speakers of English used the subjunctive less frequently. Today, the mood has practically vanished; modern speakers tend to use the conditional forms of “could” and “would” to indicate statements contrary to reality. The subjunctive only survives in a few, fossilized examples, which can be confusing.
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### Author:  [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2010, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-learn-to-use-the-subjunctive-mood-when-appropriate/558940/11 "2010-10-31T02:53:22Z")
> [@BigT](#):
>
> And I’ve yet to see anyone use a distinct present subjunctive, despite all this clamoring for the past subjunctive. I even pointed this out once in one of these threads. If you **be** interested, look it up.
Well I just consider it a misnomer to call _hypothetical conditions_ “the subjunctive,” for exactly what you imply above. Really, a construction such as _ **If I were a rich man** _ should just be referred to as “a hypothetical condition,” because you use a past form to indicate that something is contrary to fact. Whether someone uses _was_ or _were_ doesn’t concern me so much, since _be_ is the only verb that has more than one past form. I can live with that, just as I can live with someone who knocks on the door and says, “It’s me,” rather than, “It’s I.”
But to make your point more clearly, some better examples of the subjunctive mood in English are:
_The judge ordered that the defendant **be** taken into custody._
_I’m strongly urging that my sister **give up** smoking immediately_.
_I’d rather he not **do** that_.
_Be_, _give up_, and _do_, as used above, are actually what “subjunctive” refers to, but even Marianne Celce-Murcia uses the term to refer to what the OP is upset about.
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### Author:  [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2010, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-learn-to-use-the-subjunctive-mood-when-appropriate/558940/12 "2010-10-31T02:54:46Z")
Present subjunctive has long been voted obnoxious, _unless_ the speaker is a pirate. Be you a pirate?
ETA - Okay, I really meant contrary to fact, but everybody I know uses “subjunctive” to mean that.
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### Author:  [@guizot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/guizot)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2010, 3:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-learn-to-use-the-subjunctive-mood-when-appropriate/558940/13 "2010-10-31T03:11:16Z")
> [@Zsofia](#):
>
> Present subjunctive has long been voted obnoxious, _unless_ the speaker is a pirate. Be you a pirate?
Yeah, pirates just get away with murder, don’t they?
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### Author:  [@Zsofia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zsofia)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2010, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-learn-to-use-the-subjunctive-mood-when-appropriate/558940/14 "2010-10-31T03:13:24Z")
Always with the leaving prepositions end of sentences at the of!
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### Author:  [@dzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dzero)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2010, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-learn-to-use-the-subjunctive-mood-when-appropriate/558940/15 "2010-10-31T03:18:34Z")
> [@guizot](#):
>
> Yeah, pirates just get away with murder, don’t they?
I blame it on the parrots.
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### Author:  [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2010, 3:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-learn-to-use-the-subjunctive-mood-when-appropriate/558940/16 "2010-10-31T03:30:05Z")
> [@dzero](#):
>
> [URL=“[Grammar Check: Was/Were - Factual Questions - Straight Dope Message Board](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=580175)”]I think it’s likely that before much longer, the rule will change to reflect common usage.
> [@dzero](#):
>
> If someone changes the rules tomorrow though, I will certainly be able to get over it
Do you think there are some official rules the English language follows? The rules are determined by how people speak. If the majority of people don’t follow a “rule”, it’s the rule that’s wrong, not the people.
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### Author:  [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2010, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-learn-to-use-the-subjunctive-mood-when-appropriate/558940/17 "2010-10-31T03:34:29Z")
> [@dzero](#):
>
> You DO NOT EVER want to say ‘I wish I WAS at the park.’ The effect on a more sensitive ear is similar to fingernails on a . . . I can’t even say it.
_Oh, I wish I was in the land of cotton,
Old times there are not forgotten,
Look away, look away, look away Dixie Land._
:p:D;)🆒
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### Author:  [@dzero](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dzero)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2010, 3:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-learn-to-use-the-subjunctive-mood-when-appropriate/558940/18 "2010-10-31T03:43:49Z")
> [@Strinka](#):
>
> Do you think there are some official rules the English language follows? The rules are determined by how people speak. If the majority of people don’t follow a “rule”, it’s the rule that’s wrong, not the people.
Aside from the problem of determining for certain what forms most people use, I don’t think grammatical rules do or even should reflect the usage of the majority of speakers.
There has to be some level of consistency or you end up developing countless dialects that serve no purpose except to reflect the aesthetic preferences of the groups that adopt them.
I make no judgments about whether or not using the subjunctive in the case of was/were is or is not pointless historical relic. My only point is that you have to be cognizant of how your decision to either flout or follow the rules makes you appear to others. If you are speaking a social function of your peers and no one will notice, that’s fine. But if you are speaking to the board of directors of a major corporation, it would be wise to use it appropriately.
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### Author:  [@Serenata67](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Serenata67)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2010, 4:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-learn-to-use-the-subjunctive-mood-when-appropriate/558940/19 "2010-10-31T04:34:16Z")
> [@Gorsnak](#):
>
> I fear that if I were to use the subjunctive, people would think me pretentious.
Yeah… I hate it when people don’t know the difference, or how to use it properly, but I don’t want to go correcting people. I don’t want to be the grammar police or the language snob. I still HATE hearing people epically fail with the subjunctive.
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### Author:  [@Strinka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Strinka)
#### Post date: [October 31, 2010, 4:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-learn-to-use-the-subjunctive-mood-when-appropriate/558940/20 "2010-10-31T04:39:33Z")
> [@dzero](#):
>
> Aside from the problem of determining for certain what forms most people use, I don’t think grammatical rules do or even should reflect the usage of the majority of speakers.
>
> There has to be some level of consistency or you end up developing countless dialects that serve no purpose except to reflect the aesthetic preferences of the groups that adopt them.
>
> I make no judgments about whether or not using the subjunctive in the case of was/were is or is not pointless historical relic. My only point is that you have to be cognizant of how your decision to either flout or follow the rules makes you appear to others. If you are speaking a social function of your peers and no one will notice, that’s fine. But if you are speaking to the board of directors of a major corporation, it would be wise to use it appropriately.
So, what do you mean by “if the rule changes”? There is no official standard of what “the rule” is. I’m sure someone, somewhere has already declared the subjunctive defunct. And I’m sure that if it’s ever the case that hardly anyone ever uses the subjunctive, and those that do use it incorrectly half the time (like whom today), there will still be some people who consider it to somehow be more correct.
And you’re right, you should talk how the people you’re talking to will best understand you. If you’re talking to people who consider “If I was…” as bad a mistake as “I is…”, then you shouldn’t say that.
[Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-learn-to-use-the-subjunctive-mood-when-appropriate/558940.md?page=2)