# Please let's go back to democratic elections in the U.S.A. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [November 2, 2012, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-lets-go-back-to-democratic-elections-in-the-u-s-a/639642 "2012-11-02T08:58:34Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 14\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![septimus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/septimus/32/410_2.png) [@septimus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/septimus)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-lets-go-back-to-democratic-elections-in-the-u-s-a/639642/1 "2012-11-02T08:58:34Z")
Elections in the U.S. are increasingly unreliable. Some vote miscounting is due to partisan mischief, some just due to incompetence. Even on the generally intelligent SDMB, some claim to disbelieve that voter suppression has statistical significance or is partisan-motivated. Problems should get more media attention than they do. I’ve assembled a small number of representative news links about faulty voting machines and procedures. These barely scratch the surface. Click the links and read the articles – the brief excerpts I’ve provided as examples are _not_ intended to be summaries. [http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9223613/U.S.\_Finds\_Flaws\_in\_ES\_S\_DS200\_Voting\_Machine](http://www.computerworld.com/s/article/9223613/U.S._Finds_Flaws_in_ES_S_DS200_Voting_Machine) [http://www.wnyc.org/blogs/empire/2012/may/09/reports-find-machine-errors-led-uncounted-votes-2010/](http://www.wnyc.org/blogs/empire/2012/may/09/reports-find-machine-errors-led-uncounted-votes-2010/) > [@](#): > > “There’s some kind of defect in these machines that when they overheat they can create what they’re calling phantom votes,” said Larry Norden, a deputy director with the Brennan Center. “That could mean that if the person hasn’t voted in a contest, they could have a vote attributed to them that they never intended to cast. In the case of these voters in the South Bronx what it meant was that they actually meant to vote for somebody and the machine was adding votes in those contests because it had overheated.” > > The Brennan Center brought a lawsuit in 2010 after reports of voters being given a confusing warning screen when an over vote was detected. The legal process led to the finding of the South Bronx districts where more than one out of every three votes were invalidated. [http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/12/30-2](http://www.commondreams.org/view/2011/12/30-2) > [@](#): > > It should be no surprise that the states of the old Confederacy – Florida, Georgia, Texas, and North Carolina – are in the forefront of repressing black voters. Three other Jim Crow states with the greatest increase in Latino population – South Carolina, Alabama, and Tennessee – also implemented drastic measures to restrict minority voting. > > The report documents that a long-standing tactic under fire since the 1860s – the disenfranchisement of people with felony convictions – is back in vogue. This has been coupled with “severe restrictions” on persons conducting voter registration drives and reducing opportunities for early voting and the use of absentee ballots complete these template legislative acts. > > Most of these new Jim Crow tactics were initially drafted as model legislation by the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC), a secretive and conservative corporate policy group whose founder, according to the NAACP, is on record in favor of reducing the voting population in order to increase their own “leverage.” > > The Brennan Center for Justice estimates that the 25 laws passed in these 14 states could prevent as many as 5 million voters from voting, a number easily exceeding the margin of victory in numerous presidential elections. > > Ohio’s HB 194, which awaits a 2012 referendum vote, would disenfranchise an estimated 900,000 in one of our nation’s key battleground states. > > An important statistic in all the legislation is that 25 % of African Americans lack a state photo identification, as do 15% of Latinos, but by comparison, only 8% of white voters. Other significant Democratic constituents – the elderly of all races and college students – would be disproportionately impacted. > **[Better Design, Better Elections](https://www.brennancenter.org/our-work/research-reports/better-design-better-elections)** > > This comprehensive study outlines simple measures election officials can take before November to cure design defects and ensure every voter can cast a ballot that counts. > [@](#): > > We estimate that in the 2008 and 2010 general elections combined, as many as 400,000 people had their absentee or provisional ballot rejected because they made technical mistakes completing the forms or preparing and returning the envelope. > > Poor design increases the risk for lost or misrecorded votes among all voters, but the risk is even greater for particular groups. Several studies have shown higher rates of lost or misrecorded votes in low-income and minority communities as well as for the elderly and the disabled; a number of these studies also show that improvements in voting equipment and ballot design result in substantial reductions in voting errors among these voters. > > Some have dismissed the importance of usability in elections, arguing that voters only have themselves to blame if they fail to navigate design flaws. This misunderstands the purpose of elections. They are not a test of voters’ ability to follow confusing designs or complicated instructions; they are, instead, a mechanism by which voters express their preference for candidates and policies. No legitimate public purpose is served by designs that distort voters’ choices. > > Problem 3: Unclear Voting Machine Messages > > - Tens of thousands of votes were not counted in 13 Florida counties in 2008 and in New York State in 2010 because of ineffective overvote warnings. If a voter selected too many candidates in a race, a confusing error message appeared. If the voter pressed the green “Accept” button, marked with a check, the ballot would be cast with the overvote, and the vote would be lost. The Brennan Center’s suggested fixes appear on pages 27 and 28. > **[Baked Again in Alaska: Yet Another Election Crashes and Burns in The Last...](https://www.bradblog.com/?p=9259)** > > Municipal election officials see no problems despite unexplained ballot shortages, broken op-scan seals and a 25-point swing that 'defeats' an LGBT anti-discrimination ballot measure... > [@](#): > > Last month, we reported on a recent Palm Beach County, FL, election in which the paper-ballot optical-scan system declared several losing candidates as the “winners.” Thanks to the diligence the Supervisor of Elections Susan Bucher — who told me when we spoke, “I don’t want you to have to trust your election officials. I think your election officials have to prove it.” — the software failure on the Sequoia Voting Systems tabulator was discovered and the correct winners of the election were ultimately discovered via a 100% hand-count instead, weeks after the election. > Late last year The BRAD BLOG reported in detail on the Interim Board of Elections (two Republicans, one Democrat) in Venango County, PA, who bucked their own County Commissioners and legal threats from ES&S, the nation’s largest e-voting company, to have their 100% unverifiable touch-screen systems independently investigated after failures in several recent elections. The forensic study found the central tabulator had been “remotely accessed” by someone on “multiple occasions,” including for 80 minutes on the night before the 2010 general election. As thanks, the commissioners were pushed out of their jobs before the investigation was completed. Asked why the County Commissioners and ES&S were so opposed to an independent forensic analysis by two Carnegie-Mellon computer scientists, the Republican Director of the Board, Craig Adams told me: “They know there’s something wrong.” > The damage was already done. There were a record number of questioned ballots used, perhaps due to unregistered voters answering Minnery’s call to vote, who cast ballots that would never be counted, in the place of a registered voter who might have used that ballot to cast a legitimate vote. > > A post-election investigation, which is still ongoing, found that a full 53 of Anchorage’s 121 precincts completely ran out of ballots at some point on Election Day. > > But Minnery’s campaign isn’t the only factor which some believe may have resulted in a shortage of ballots on April 3. > **[Board of Elections does nothing as hundreds of Bronx votes go missing](https://www.nydailynews.com/2012/02/27/board-of-elections-does-nothing-as-hundreds-of-bronx-votes-go-missing/)** > > The Board of Elections’ highest duty is to ensure that New Yorkers get a straight count when they exercise the franchise. The patronage-ridden cesspool can’t even do that. More than six… > [@](#): > > Either huge numbers of voters had improperly filled out their ballots, or at least one of the scanners had gone haywire. The board did nothing. Actually, the board did worse than nothing. It refused to check — even when asked to do so by state election officials. ETA: Two more links I’d intended to include: > **[Will "experimental" software patches affect the Ohio vote?](http://www.freepress.org/departments/display/19/2012/4766)** (Ohio voting machines have “experimental” patches.) > **[Absentee Ballots in FLA Being Thrown Out (Updated X 3)](https://www.dailykos.com/story/2012/10/31/1153005/-Absentee-Ballots-in-FLA-Being-Thrown-Out)** > > I just found out that my friend Mona Reis, who owns an abortion clinic in West Palm Beach, Presidential Women's Center , has had her absentee ballot rejected by the county's canvassing board because: (Some Florida absentee ballots silently rejected.) ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-lets-go-back-to-democratic-elections-in-the-u-s-a/639642/2 "2012-11-02T13:08:17Z")
Can you believe that the supplier of the electronic voting machines will not make their software public? There is no way even of verifying it doesn’t have a systematic bias. And I have heard stories of election officials able to insert a USB stick at the beginning of election day and reprogram them. In Canada (and, AFAIK, nearly all other countries) you vote for only one office–or possibly two–at a time and there is no reason to use anything but paper ballots and count them by hand. Or using the same sort of readers that read multiple-choice exams. (The reason for two is that in my municipality, you vote for mayor and councilman at the same time.) I still remember that the first time I voted–in Penna, in 1958) I was presented with a ballot (actually a mechanical lever machine) with maybe 30 different offices to vote for (and maybe a couple of questions). The thing is that the only people I knew anything at all about were the governor, state and national representatives and senators. So I case a party line vote, as do most people. Much better to reduce the number of offices people vote for and use paper ballots that can be counted and, if necessary, recounted by hand. The idea that the voter ID laws have any purpose other than reduce the number of Democratic votes is fantasy. When Penna passed its law, some prominent Republican chortled that this would guarantee the state for the Republicans. It has now been suspended for this election and Penna is not counted as probable Democratic, but it will be back. Once such laws are passed in many states and SCOTUS approves them, there will be no way to go back since there won’t be enough Democrats elected to reverse them. ---
**Author:** ![Ellen\_Cherry](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ellen_cherry/32/3600_2.png) [@Ellen\_Cherry](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ellen_Cherry)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-lets-go-back-to-democratic-elections-in-the-u-s-a/639642/3 "2012-11-02T13:19:36Z")
Moving from IMHO to Elections. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-lets-go-back-to-democratic-elections-in-the-u-s-a/639642/4 "2012-11-02T13:57:25Z")
While I share the general sentiments of the OP, I’m not so sure things are worse than they used to be. Do we have evidence that our elections were once “better” than they are now? Maybe I’m just getting old, but when I see a reference to “Jim Crow South”, I’m reminded that it wasn’t very long ago that there actually was a Jim Crow South. ---
**Author:** ![Clothahump](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/51bf81/32.png) [@Clothahump](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clothahump)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 4:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-lets-go-back-to-democratic-elections-in-the-u-s-a/639642/5 "2012-11-02T16:55:55Z")
Let’s just take one part of one of those dumbass quotes: > [@](#): > > It should be no surprise that the states of the old Confederacy – Florida, Georgia, Texas, and North Carolina – are in the forefront of repressing black voters. Three other Jim Crow states with the greatest increase in Latino population – South Carolina, Alabama, and Tennessee – also implemented drastic measures to restrict minority voting. Cite? Until solid proof is shown, we’ll just say bald-faced lie and leave it at that. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-lets-go-back-to-democratic-elections-in-the-u-s-a/639642/6 "2012-11-02T17:25:58Z")
I, for one, find it amusing that the same people who in 2000 demanded electronic voting machines so we wouldn’t have to have an election decided by “hanging chads” again, are now demanding paper ballots because electronic voting machines could hypothetically be rigged. ---
**Author:** ![MaxTheVool](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9fc29f/32.png) [@MaxTheVool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MaxTheVool)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 5:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-lets-go-back-to-democratic-elections-in-the-u-s-a/639642/7 "2012-11-02T17:34:03Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I, for one, find it amusing that the same people who in 2000 demanded electronic voting machines so we wouldn’t have to have an election decided by “hanging chads” again, are now demanding paper ballots because electronic voting machines could hypothetically be rigged. Yes, it IS quite amusing that people are worried about the democratic process being subverted. LOL! ROFLMAO!!! ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-lets-go-back-to-democratic-elections-in-the-u-s-a/639642/8 "2012-11-02T17:35:15Z")
Who was demanding electronic voting machines? > [@Clothahump](#): > > Cite? Until solid proof is shown, we’ll just say bald-faced lie and leave it at that. Have you not visited GD in the past, oh, three years? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![CJJ](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ecc23a/32.png) [@CJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CJJ)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-lets-go-back-to-democratic-elections-in-the-u-s-a/639642/9 "2012-11-02T17:46:07Z")
Gang, the GOP has been subverting the democratic process for decades–ever since they lost in 1992. They just can’t believe that–after Ronald Reagan–the Democrats would ever win again; there’s a post at [Hullabaloo](http://digbysblog.blogspot.com/2012/11/destabilizing-fundamental-mechanism-of.html) today regarding Romney’s “poll watchers” in Iowa and other swing states which touches quite well on the history: > [@](#): > > The Republican Party had convinced itself that the Reagan election ushered in a thousand year reign and that Democrats simply could never win again. When that proved to be false in the 90s they started this scheme to destabilize and delegitimize the people’s choice — the most fundamental mechanism of our democracy. First they tried to force Clinton to resign from office through a series of trumped up scandals and then impeached him for a personal indiscretion. The following years brought the debacle of the 2000 election, unprecedented gerrymandering in out years, the politicization of the Department of Justice voting rights division, the firing of Attorneys General who refused to interfere in elections and prosecute bogus voter fraud issues, the institutionalization of “voter ID”, and now this. Another close presidential election will further put their plans to the test. ---
**Author:** ![Reyemile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/46a35a/32.png) [@Reyemile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reyemile)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-lets-go-back-to-democratic-elections-in-the-u-s-a/639642/10 "2012-11-02T17:49:43Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I, for one, find it amusing that the same people who in 2000 demanded electronic voting machines so we wouldn’t have to have an election decided by “hanging chads” again, are now demanding paper ballots because electronic voting machines could hypothetically be rigged. People were demanded electronic voting machines THAT LEFT PAPER TRAILS–optical scan, or touchscreen that printed confirmation, or something. As soon as the 2004 elections rolled around with completely unverifiable Diebold machines, everyone paying any attention knew this was a terrible solution to a real problem. ---
**Author:** ![YogSothoth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/8edcca/32.png) [@YogSothoth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/YogSothoth)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-lets-go-back-to-democratic-elections-in-the-u-s-a/639642/11 "2012-11-02T18:24:45Z")
The only way to fix this is to have a Constitutional Amendment, again, that will protect voters with no ID, force all 50 states to get the federal government’s approval before gerrymandering and changing the voting process, make any election software open to at least the government, have a paper trail, and make consistent the voting process in all 50 states ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-lets-go-back-to-democratic-elections-in-the-u-s-a/639642/12 "2012-11-02T19:13:47Z")
> [@Smapti](#): > > I, for one, find it amusing that the same people who in 2000 demanded electronic voting machines so we wouldn’t have to have an election decided by “hanging chads” again, are now demanding paper ballots because electronic voting machines could hypothetically be rigged. ??? Who are these people? I don’t recall anyone asking for electronic voting to end the problem with chads. I do know that the left-leaning folks _didn’t_ like electronic voting machines, becausre they thought them too open to tampering, and because the manufacturers of such machines were generally rightist supporters. On the other hand, the rightist supporters of voting machines didn’tr, to my recollection, voice any objections about chads. If they did, they certainly wouldn’t now be the ones demanding paper ballots. So I can’t think of any group that fits your criteria. ---
**Author:** ![drewtwo99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d07c76/32.png) [@drewtwo99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/drewtwo99)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-lets-go-back-to-democratic-elections-in-the-u-s-a/639642/13 "2012-11-02T19:24:48Z")
Nobody hates electronic voting machines more than I do. I honestly wish the entire country would go the way of Oregon and Washington and just do all mail-in voting. At the very least I wish all states would have no-excuse absentee voting as an option. But, you aren’t going to convince anyone until the mainstream media makes a big fucking deal about how unreliable these voting machines are. Links from dailykos and such just aren’t good enough to convince people to do anything. I fully support a constitutional amendment that would do the following: 1. All federal-level elections would be run by the federal government, by federal employees (not elderly volunteers, and not at the county level effectively making it so that we have thousands of different elections for president) 2. A federal level system where, upon reaching the age of 18, you are summoned down to get a free official federal ID card, that would be accepted everywhere as your ID, and would be required to vote. 3. All forms of voting must be on physical paper. Electronic machines must leave a paper trail for each vote cast, created the moment each vote is cast. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2012, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-lets-go-back-to-democratic-elections-in-the-u-s-a/639642/14 "2012-11-02T21:33:17Z")
> [@Reyemile](#): > > People were demanded electronic voting machines THAT LEFT PAPER TRAILS–optical scan, or touchscreen that printed confirmation, or something. As soon as the 2004 elections rolled around with completely unverifiable Diebold machines, everyone paying any attention knew this was a terrible solution to a real problem. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=15654914](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=15654914) > [@](#): > > A laboratory shows how an e-voting machine used by a third of all voters can be easily manipulated > **[Hack The Vote: Controversial E-Voting Machines Still Widely Used Despite...](https://www.huffpost.com/entry/electronic-voting-machines-2012_n_1992992)** > > Hack The Vote: Controversial E-Voting Machines Still Widely Used Despite Security Concerns > [@](#): > > For years, researchers have been aware of numerous security flaws in electronic voting machines. They’ve found ways to hack the machines to swap votes between candidates, reject ballots or accept 50,000 votes from a precinct with just 100 voters. And oldie but goodie! [http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0828-08.htm](http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0828-08.htm) > [@](#): > > The head of a company vying to sell voting machines in Ohio told Republicans in a recent fund-raising letter that he is “committed to helping Ohio deliver its electoral votes to the president next year.” - he meant President Bush