# "Please reach out to military members" thread wrongly closed **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [June 2, 2020, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918 "2020-06-02T11:59:39Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 11:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/1 "2020-06-02T11:59:39Z")
[Please reach out to military members you know after Trumps announcement](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=897382) got started in Politics & Elections, with this OP: > [@russian heel](#): > > Shooting and killing unarmed civilians (which Trump will order you to do) is a WAR CRIME. You are not required to follow these orders. I know you will do the right and brave thing and stand down if ordered to do so. > > Thank you, your fellow Americans. It was closed as follows: > [@Jonathan Chance](#): > > The Moderator Speaks > Disobedience to orders is punishable under the UCMJ and therefore illegal. > > It is against the rules of the SDMB to encourage illegal acts. Therefore I’m closing this. > > No warning issued. [This is incorrect.](https://www.thebalancecareers.com/military-orders-3332819) > [@](#): > > Military members failing to obey lawful orders issued by their superiors risk serious consequences. Article 90 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (UCMJ) outlines the crime of willful disobedience by a military member a superior commissioned officer. Article 91 covers willful disobedience of a superior Noncommissioned or Warrant Officer. Article 92 conveys what constitutes the crime of disobedience of any lawful order (the disobedience does not have to be “willful” under this article). > > These articles require the obedience of LAWFUL orders. Not only should an unlawful order not be obeyed, obeying such an order can result in criminal prosecution. Military courts have long held that military members are accountable for their actions even while following orders. [emphasis added] Russian heel is encouraging troops to disobey unlawful orders. That’s not encouraging illegal activity. Unless you think that an order requiring “shooting and killing unarmed civilians” in the US would ever be a lawful order, this thread closure is predicated on an incorrect understanding of the law. I hope y’all will reopen the thread. ---
**Author:** ![faync1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecb155/32.png) [@faync1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/faync1)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/2 "2020-06-02T12:17:28Z")
"The Moderator Speaks Disobedience to orders is punishable under the UCMJ and therefore illegal. It is against the rules of the SDMB to encourage illegal acts. Therefore I’m closing this. No warning issued."[https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=897382](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=897382) To say “Disobedience to orders is . . . illegal” is incorrect. Article 92 of the UCMJ: “Any person subject to this chapter who— (1) violates any lawful general order or regulation; (2) having knowledge of any other lawful order issued by a member of the armed forces and fails to obey the order; or (3) is derelict in the performance of his duties; shall be punished as a court-martial may direct.” Elements. (1) Violation of a lawful general order or regulation. (a) That there was in effect a certain lawful general order or regulation; (b) That the accused had a duty to obey it; and (c) That the accused violated or failed to obey the order or regulation. (2) Failure to obey other lawful order. (a) That a member of the armed forces issued a certain lawful order; (b) That the accused had knowledge of the order; (c) That the accused had a duty to obey the order; and (d) That the accused failed to obey the order. (3) Dereliction in the performance of duties. (a) That the accused had certain duties; (b) That the accused knew or reasonably should have known of the duties; and (c) That the accused was (willfully) (through neglect or culpable inefficiency) derelict in the performance of those duties." Violating an order is only punishable under the UCMJ if, _inter alia_, (1) the order was lawful, and (2) “the accused had a duty to obey the order.” It seems to me that the OP’s point is that soldiers may receive orders that are unlawful, and which they would have no duty to obey. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/3 "2020-06-02T12:17:20Z")
Agreed. This is a legitimate topic of discussion and not at all encouraging any illegal behavior. Shooting and killing unarmed civilians would almost certainly be an unlawful order. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/4 "2020-06-02T13:06:25Z")
Agreed. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 1:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/5 "2020-06-02T13:08:37Z")
reported, to merge similar threads. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/6 "2020-06-02T13:09:53Z")
It may be that such a post treads on thin ice legally, and the mods don’t want any possibility of liability coming back on the board. That would be understandable, if that were the reason given. If mods want to clarify that it is out of an overabundance of caution that they prefer that threads like that not be propagated, I think we can and should accept that. The actual reason that was given, however, was not correct. ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/7 "2020-06-02T13:13:48Z")
**Moderator Note** > [@Peter\_Morris](#): > > reported, to merge similar threads. Two threads on the same topic have been merged. Snowboarder Bo’s “Agreed” was in response to the posts by Left Hand of Dorkness and iiandyiiii, not the post by faync1 which was from the second thread. ---
**Author:** ![Peter\_Morris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/peter_morris/32/359_2.png) [@Peter\_Morris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Peter_Morris)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 1:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/8 "2020-06-02T13:25:43Z")
I agree with both OP’s. I sent Jonathan a PM expressing the same. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 1:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/9 "2020-06-02T13:36:03Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > It may be that such a post treads on thin ice legally, and the mods don’t want any possibility of liability coming back on the board. > > That would be understandable, if that were the reason given. > > If mods want to clarify that it is out of an overabundance of caution that they prefer that threads like that not be propagated, I think we can and should accept that. Is the worry that the board will be accused of telling soldiers not to shoot unarmed civilians? That’s pretty far beyond an abundance of caution, and I don’t think we should accept that. In normal times, I’d think the concern was hyperbolic. I don’t want to dig too deep into the meat of the matter here, but these aren’t normal times. ---
**Author:** ![CarnalK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/carnalk/32/486_2.png) [@CarnalK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CarnalK)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/10 "2020-06-02T13:40:53Z")
Unfortunately, it still seems like a “call to action” which should have been closed anyway. JC’s stated reason is, I agree, super lame. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/11 "2020-06-02T14:06:55Z")
Closing that thread was a shameful mistake ---
**Author:** ![Fiveroptic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fiveroptic/32/8257_2.png) [@Fiveroptic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveroptic)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/12 "2020-06-02T14:17:10Z")
> [@k9bfriender](#): > > It may be that such a post treads on thin ice legally, and the mods don’t want any possibility of liability coming back on the board. > > That would be understandable, if that were the reason given. > > If mods want to clarify that it is out of an overabundance of caution that they prefer that threads like that not be propagated, I think we can and should accept that. Right? Just accept what’s going on in the world and don’t talk about it. You know, out of an abundance of caution. On a message board. Where no physical harm can come to anyone by talking about disobeying an unlawful order. This is exactly the mindset that got the United States into this shit to begin with. ---
**Author:** ![Emiliana](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f0a364/32.png) [@Emiliana](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Emiliana)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/13 "2020-06-02T14:22:49Z")
> [@Fiveroptic](#): > > Right? Just accept what’s going on in the world and don’t talk about it. You know, out of an abundance of caution. On a message board. Where no physical harm can come to anyone by talking about disobeying an unlawful order. > > This is exactly the mindset that got the United States into this shit to begin with. Well, they have to leave board space for the discussion of why it’s not racist to call someone a nigger. ---
**Author:** ![Oakminster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/77aa72/32.png) [@Oakminster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Oakminster)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 2:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/14 "2020-06-02T14:46:13Z")
Whether illegal or not, this board has long had a rule against soliciting calls to action, which this clearly is. Thread was properly closed. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/15 "2020-06-02T14:48:09Z")
> [@Oakminster](#): > > Whether illegal or not, this board has long had a rule against soliciting calls to action, which this clearly is. Thread was properly closed. A call to action means talking to your family and friends? This technically falls under that rule, but if the rule really means, “Don’t encourage people to talk to family members about not committing war crimes,” we need to change that rule. If it were a call to write to the president and tell him to stop committing war crimes, it’s still be a bad rule to prevent it. But that’s not what this was. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 2:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/16 "2020-06-02T14:49:45Z")
Inciting rebellion is unlawful under US federal law. > **[18 U.S. Code § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2383)** Which is exactly what the closed post was doing. Asking that people request soldiers to refuse to follow orders. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/17 "2020-06-02T14:50:59Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Inciting rebellion is unlawful under US federal law. > [18 U.S. Code § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection | U.S. Code | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2383) > > Which is exactly what the closed post was doing. Asking that people request soldiers to refuse to follow orders. Refuse to follow _unlawful_ orders. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 2:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/18 "2020-06-02T14:52:46Z")
Call to action: [Stand still on the escalator](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=897352). Call to action: [Democrats shouldn’t condone looting](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=897116). Call to action: [Wear a mask at the grocery store](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=897024). The rule has never been enforced in this manner before, and it’s not why the thread was closed. Let’s not invent reasons for an improperly closed thread to be closed, if you’ll forgive my call to action. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/19 "2020-06-02T14:55:04Z")
> [@AK84](#): > > Inciting rebellion is unlawful under US federal law. > [18 U.S. Code § 2383 - Rebellion or insurrection | U.S. Code | US Law | LII / Legal Information Institute](https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/2383) > > Which is exactly what the closed post was doing. Asking that people request soldiers to refuse to follow orders. Asking people to follow unlawful orders would be equally illegal. Your post is irrelevant. ---
**Author:** ![AK84](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/85e7bf/32.png) [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)\ **Post date:** [June 2, 2020, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918/20 "2020-06-02T15:02:04Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Asking people to follow unlawful orders would be equally illegal. Your post is irrelevant. Good luck to the admins and moderators explaining it to a judge. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/please-reach-out-to-military-members-thread-wrongly-closed/854918.md?page=2)